ball_planepark

[Mandrad]

Hey guys

This one had feedback before being posted!!! LOL

Its my graphics, but Maimers ideas and objects wonderfull distribution.
I blame Maimer, for the quality of this

Heres the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/nujnlm...planepark.altx

Can be played at Non-Official#1 and Non-Official#2.

Enjoy

[djdigga]

i played this map a few days ago. AND IT WAS AWESOME!!!!

[r87]

Played this earlier...very nice.

[nesnl]

We played a bunch of games on this and everyone agrees that the art is awesome! Definitely captures the feel of ball and it also plays really well.

[Esoteric]

Ya, was a fun map with good action.

[tgleaf]

Agree... some of the top ball players and clans clashed last night and the map held up incredibly well. It managed to be okay with 7v7, but smaller is probably better. Beautiful design, nice rounded edges for self-pass and sneaky getaways, enough obstacles (just barely) in the mid-map, and some fun trick spots (mid-top power up and narrow vertical tunnel). I especially like the parentheses (for lack of a better description) near mid-map that allow for defensive cover while taking out enemies.

[Don't Follow]

Sick map, love the fluidity, openness, space, and yet close/tight quarters when it comes down to the crunch...EXCELLENT map. thank you

[Hagnot]

Not quite sure about that powerup at the top of the map, but the rest looks really great.
Gotta try that sometime!

[Mandrad]

According to Maimer and some players, map proved to be too big.

Original: 4330x1612px
New version: 3800x1415px

Heres the link for u to download ball_planepark latest version:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/wouuoh...planepark.altx

[carstairs]

Originally Posted by Mandrad

According to Maimer and some players, map proved to be too big.

Original: 4330x1612px
New version: 3800x1415px

Heres the link for u to download ball_planepark latest version:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/wouuoh...planepark.altx

Will take a look. The original was good, but it played a bit slow with larger groups. But it forced good play, which is great in ball.

The smaller map should help it go faster, I look forward to some matches in it.

[gren00b]

Well done, looks badass.

[tomato man]

I love this map!!!!!!! <3

[FDS]

PLEASE MAKE THIS MAP OFFICIAL

you guys don't know how many people i've heard request this map be made official.
i know i'd love to have it that way.

[RemyVJA]

I would love to see this make it into the official map pack. Really well designed.

[FDS]

Great success!

[tgleaf]

Congrats on having an official map! Players love it (as you know), but the games do last too long. As one person today commented, "feels like game over every time some1 scores." Few and far between, that is.

Another comment: "spawns are a bit too defensive [close to the goals] on this map i think."

Wish I had a suggestion for fixing the spawn/slowness of the map, but I don't. The smaller map size DOES help, by the way.

Edit: forgot (thanks guava) that yes, this map works pretty well as 5v5.

[drunkguava]

Good map, but yeah, lasts too long. I think with 5v5 it would be perfect though. Just know that 7v7 is ridiculous. When there are 3 people posting 70+ kills in a ball game, you know it's taking too long.

[Deathblade]

Love the looks of this map.

It's too big though, and too much of a clusterf*ck anywhere besides the middle. Decent shots on the goal are basically nil, almost all of the scoring is done by dunks, and the only real viable path to the goal is the long corridor at the bottom.

As for it lasting too long, that is partly because the only place to pass the ball is in the middle of the map...everywhere else is too cluttered to do anything.

[tgleaf]

What about something like this? I made changes to the right side to hopefully open up a scoring channel along the bottom (but above the tunnel/corridor), and also to open up the goal area a little more. It would allow long shots as well. I kept the left side the same for comparison.

[nesnl]

There are couple of issues with the current layout of this map. First, the map is designed around 5v5 or 6v6. Most of the complaints I see are coming from servers that are 8v8 or larger. This same problem occurs in TBD maps as well. I will tell you right now that no map is ever going to play well across all games sizes. The best thing to do is design maps around an ideal game size and not worry about the problems it creates in other game sizes.

Second, I think most people don't really play very good tactics in ball. Most people have the mentality of "holding the ball until I die," which doesn't impact a game such as ball_snow as much because it's just two straight corridors. However, on a map like this that is much more technical, playing badly is punished much more.

I am going to take a look at some new layouts and work with mandrad to try to open the map up a bit more. I think one of the things that will help a lot is the ability to attempt long shots.

Also, the map is the same size, if not smaller, than a lot of the ball maps. I just think people get the impression that it is larger due to moving the ball slower.

Anyway, hopefully a revision will be up soon that we can try out and see if it works better.

[nesnl]

Okay, here is a layout I have been messing around with. I tried to open up the horizontal pathways a bit more and took out some of the larger obstructions in front of the goal. The ball should move left to right much easier now instead of getting stopped so much along the way. I want to get some feedback on this design though. Do you like it? What would you change?

[lamster]

The new layout looks interesting to me, it's definitely worth a playtest.

I think this map would benefit from pushing the spawn bunkers forward. I like to picture the spawn area for each team as a big fan that pushes back against any momentum from the opposing team. Putting the spawn points close to the center encourages scoring drives: once a team breaks through the turbulent middle they have a very good chance of converting their drive into a goal. When the spawn points are much closer to the goals than to the center it tends to produce an anti-climactic, drive-stopping barrier of freshly-spawned opposition (often the very players that were just destroyed in a central battle to set off the break). Related note: I think ball_mayhem could use more central spawns too (and possibly a slight shrink?) and ball_woods suffers for the same reason (though the relatively quick path from top-center to goal keeps woods from stalemating too much).

[nesnl]

Pushing the spawn bunkers forward on this map, at this point, would require quite a bit of art work rearrangement which would take quite a bit of time. Not saying it isn't warranted, but just not sure how viable it is at this point.

I think there is a major dilemma facing ball map design and it centers around spawning. The balance between having spawns that are central, but at the same time as removed from game play as possible (as in your fan example), is hard to get exactly right. I think that if they are too removed and too central, you often times have "run away" goals where a team has no chance to recover, which is usually the result of having "unlucky" spawn waves. However, if spawn points are too close to the action you end up having that stalemate that you speak of. I think that there isn't a single map out there that has perfected this balance (and I am not even sure if it's possible).

The result of having to have these types of spawn bunkers ends up having a huge impact on how maps are designed. Maps that are typically favored right now (albeit by newer players) are maps like ball_snow. This is because these maps generally are very simple and in ball_snow's case it is basically as simple as having two large corridors that run east/west. People don't realize that these maps dumb down the game because poor play is often not punished, but good play is not rewarded. Goals on these types of maps are quick (which makes people think the maps are good) because the eventual ebb and flow of people smashing their way through 1 of the two corridors (more often than not the bottom passageway) eventually results in one of the teams catching a good "run" when the other team has an "unlucky" spawn wave.

I want to be able to make maps more technical, but thus far have had people mostly complain. This is because players who don't understand how to play ball well, which requires smart movement and most importantly good ball movement with passing, get punished so hard from maps that aren't simplified. Ball_planepark is probably the most technical map at this point. I have seen good players move the ball well and believe me, when this happens, a goal happens and it happens fast. I have also played games of 5v5 or 6v6 on ball_planepark and had really good games, again, because good play is rewarded while poor play is punished. There were no goals from people just trying to "slam" their way across the map.

I guess the question I have is how do I design maps going into the future. Most of the ball servers are bouncy and have 16+ people in them. In my opinion this will never promote people trying to get better at the game. So do I design maps around people who are actually good at playing ball and want to play in an environment with hard walls and 10 or maybe 12 players? Because if I do, those same maps will never play as well on a server with 16, 18 or 20 players. Maybe the issue of how to deal with spawns needs to be revisited again, but last time I tried to brainstorm and look for new fresh methods, we never really came up with anything. Maybe the spawn times in ball should be increased. Right now they are 2 or 3 seconds, maybe a change to 5 seconds would make people value their lives a little more and promote better play.

As for your other comments regarding ball mayhem (and I assume mayhem2), I never changed anything about ball mayhem. I made sure that the only thing I changed about ball mayhem was that I removed the top passageway and made those spawn bunkers. I feared changing anything else because then I thought maybe you wouldn't replace the old version. The new version is the same size as the old version, I could try to shrink it, but it would require a rework of how it actually looks and the layout of the objects. Ball mayhem2 is a bit smaller both top to bottom and side to side. How do you feel about the size of that map? As for ball_woods, it was never a good map and most people don't like it (myself included). I made that map back when I hadn't played ball very much at all and didn't understand the mechanics of spawns and how the pace of the game worked. I don't really see a way for ball_woods to work (just like how I gave up on ball middleground). Maybe remove ball_woods from the official list and hope to try to rid ourselves of it once and for all?

But I don't really want to derail this conversation away from ball_planepark. I think we should look for the optimal solution for this map with what we have to work with and then just move forward. Maybe once of these days I will do a general analysis of all the ball maps so far and try to figure out a working model for a good map. I think I had a pretty good handle on how to make TBD maps (especially the size of them) which is still something I am trying to figure out with the ball maps.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by nesnl

Okay, here is a layout I have been messing around with. I tried to open up the horizontal pathways a bit more and took out some of the larger obstructions in front of the goal. The ball should move left to right much easier now instead of getting stopped so much along the way. I want to get some feedback on this design though. Do you like it? What would you change?

Nice. I have a feeling that will shift some of the play from the bottom corridor towards the middle, since the upper area is now more open. I also think it will encourage vertical passing from bottom to top, another improvement.

I've been thinking about increased spawn times, also. I think we should test it out.

Originally Posted by nesnl

Maybe remove ball_woods from the official list and hope to try to rid ourselves of it once and for all?

Yes, please. Woods is the cause of successful /vote changemap calls a good 80% of the time.

[Harmonica]

Originally Posted by nesnl

Maps that are typically favored right now (albeit by newer players) are maps like ball_snow. This is because these maps generally are very simple and in ball_snow's case it is basically as simple as having two large corridors that run east/west. People don't realize that these maps dumb down the game because poor play is often not punished, but good play is not rewarded. Goals on these types of maps are quick (which makes people think the maps are good) because the eventual ebb and flow of people smashing their way through 1 of the two corridors (more often than not the bottom passageway) eventually results in one of the teams catching a good "run" when the other team has an "unlucky" spawn wave.

As a Snow-fan for competitive games and a Snow-hater for public games, I think there's an additional element here: while it's true that Snow turns into a grindfest when everybody carries the ball, I think it's one of the better maps for pass plays (not as good as Mayhem2 or Darkwar, IMO, but better for passing than Maze or Cave). The length and "parallel-ness" of the pathways through the map allow for some great passes and teamwork, particularly when done as fake-outs between corridors. Snow has its weaknesses, but its passing game is a strength that I think few other maps have achieved.

Planepark has a nice balance between carrying and passing, although the passing is sometimes rather chaotic: most passes seem to happen almost by accident, rather than by plan. Most open maps don't offer an opportunity for receivers: the openness makes it unrealistic or unfeasible for a player to 'slip ahead', since even a poor defense can attack both planes at once. Planepark doesn't have this issue, though: carriers can do their thing and receivers are both feasible and effective. I think that balance is responsible for much of the success the map has seen.

Originally Posted by nesnl

Maybe the spawn times in ball should be increased. Right now they are 2 or 3 seconds, maybe a change to 5 seconds would make people value their lives a little more and promote better play.

I don't think this would have the desired effect. "Death throws" -- randomly chucking the ball when you're in danger, often to save your own skin -- are bad enough already. The risk of death will always be greatest to the carrier and potential receivers; if the effects of death are made more severe then even more players will try to avoid it via cheap moves.

While death certainly needs to incur some penalty, dying while attempting a strategically-sound formation should not be punished too greatly -- and, in my opinion, a player who avoids death via cheap or non-teamwork-oriented tactics (eg, haphazard throws and ratio camping) deserves more penalty than a player who gets ambushed 3v1 trying to go long for a pass.

[nesnl]

Originally Posted by Harmonica

I don't think this would have the desired effect. "Death throws" -- randomly chucking the ball when you're in danger, often to save your own skin -- are bad enough already. The risk of death will always be greatest to the carrier and potential receivers; if the effects of death are made more severe then even more players will try to avoid it via cheap moves.

While death certainly needs to incur some penalty, dying while attempting a strategically-sound formation should not be punished too greatly -- and, in my opinion, a player who avoids death via cheap or non-teamwork-oriented tactics (eg, haphazard throws and ratio camping) deserves more penalty than a player who gets ambushed 3v1 trying to go long for a pass.

The reason that I recommended the increased spawn times was to prevent the problem as described by lamster (you kill someone only to face them again before reaching the opposing team's goal). Honestly, I am not that concerned about what you describe here, which is players taking a risk in order to score a goal (by pushing and getting open for a goal). Even if they do die and have to wait a few more seconds to respawn there isn't an immediate danger of getting a goal scored on them.

I actually like the "death throw" maneuver. I have become good at not only doing the maneuver but also at preventing others from doing it successfully. This maneuver actually works well in combinations with increased spawn times because if an offensive player can death throw prior to dying that person will be able to offset some of the penalty for dying by allowing them to wait out the spawn time and still have the ball in the offensive zone. The increased spawn time also prevents defensive players from fighting the same push time after time.

I think actually that the more i think about it that increased spawn time might actually be the answer we are looking for. In TBD, spawn times work really well at penalizing death. Right now in ball there basically is no penalty for dying except the travel distance back to the action, which has resulted in having to pick apart where spawn points are and how they affect action. With increased spawn times (maybe even 6, 7, or more seconds) you wouldn't have to worry so much about adjusting the distance and location of the spawn points because the times would balance it out.

[r87]

Originally Posted by nesnl

I want to be able to make maps more technical, but thus far have had people mostly complain. This is because players who don't understand how to play ball well, which requires smart movement and most importantly good ball movement with passing, get punished so hard from maps that aren't simplified. Ball_planepark is probably the most technical map at this point. I have seen good players move the ball well and believe me, when this happens, a goal happens and it happens fast. I have also played games of 5v5 or 6v6 on ball_planepark and had really good games, again, because good play is rewarded while poor play is punished. There were no goals from people just trying to "slam" their way across the map.

This, emphatically. Planepark requires top-notch passing and teamwork. It's *impossible* to go coast to coast alone, unlike nearly every other map.

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by nesnl

I think actually that the more i think about it that increased spawn time might actually be the answer we are looking for. In TBD, spawn times work really well at penalizing death. Right now in ball there basically is no penalty for dying except the travel distance back to the action, which has resulted in having to pick apart where spawn points are and how they affect action. With increased spawn times (maybe even 6, 7, or more seconds) you wouldn't have to worry so much about adjusting the distance and location of the spawn points because the times would balance it out.

The problem here is that ball is by its nature faster than TBD. As mentioned in another topic, the fact that the ball is always in the play while in TBD you have downtime between bombs means that the game is always in a "danger" mode where the other team can quickly rush in and score. Also the fact that the ball can be passed means that it is not about protecting one player and instead its all about getting just one plane through the defenses. If the spawn timer is increased by much it means that a couple of kills tips the balance in your teams favor so much that the other team will be struggling badly to prevent a goal, as all you need is one player getting through and you have the more planes to throw at them.

I am in favor of testing out a longer spawn timer for ball, but I assume a larger change will probably make the game mode worse, not better.

[r87]

I strongly disagree with a lengthy re-spawn for ball. It will only slow down the action and encourage slaughtering the other team as opposed to out-passing and out-maneuvering.

Strongly oppose.

[r87]

Originally Posted by gemigemi

The problem here is that ball is by its nature faster than TBD. As mentioned in another topic, the fact that the ball is always in the play while in TBD you have downtime between bombs means that the game is always in a "danger" mode where the other team can quickly rush in and score. Also the fact that the ball can be passed means that it is not about protecting one player and instead its all about getting just one plane through the defenses. If the spawn timer is increased by much it means that a couple of kills tips the balance in your teams favor so much that the other team will be struggling badly to prevent a goal, as all you need is one player getting through and you have the more planes to throw at them.

I am in favor of testing out a longer spawn timer for ball, but I assume a larger change will probably make the game mode worse, not better.

I agree 100%. Ball is not TBD, and trying to make it more like TBD is a bad move. As it is, I can count multiple goals saved each time I play by players who re-spawn and rush to defend the goal. This adds a brilliant element to ball that is just not present in TBD.

Ball should be fast paced chaos on its face, with an underflow of articulate passing and strategy to separate the good from the bad. Being able to kill the whole other team has never been, and should never be, a staple of superior strategy in ball.

[nesnl]

Originally Posted by r87

I agree 100%. Ball is not TBD, and trying to make it more like TBD is a bad move. As it is, I can count multiple goals saved each time I play by players who re-spawn and rush to defend the goal. This adds a brilliant element to ball that is just not present in TBD.

Ball should be fast paced chaos on its face, with an underflow of articulate passing and strategy to separate the good from the bad. Being able to kill the whole other team has never been, and should never be, a staple of superior strategy in ball.

I think anyone who has played a fair share of TBD knows that this same element is still present in TBD. In TBD, spawn times allow for brief periods where a team can make a move, but there are still plenty of times that people spawn again prior to the other team making it to the base, and a lot of times it means spawning just in time to block the bomb. This element is actually quite similar to ball where people spawn and rush back in the hopes of just intercepting a shot on goal.

The question is not and never will be about creating a game where "killing the entire other team is a superior strategy." However, the game is centered around killing other planes. In my opinion the ability to consistently kill opposing planes should be rewarded in any mode. The problem with ball right now is that the spawn times are so short that killing another plane means that they are often back shooting at you within 2-3 seconds.

All of the maps in ball try to adjust for this problem by removing the spawns from the playable area. Look at darkwar or snow as they are prime examples or the updates to mayhem, mayhem2 and core. The reason the spawns are removed from play is to partially offset the planes which are instantly spawning back into battle by requiring them to travel a farther distance.

The reason I think spawn times could use an increase is because as it stands right now you often kill a player 2, 3, 4 or even more times as you work your way across a map. When you are seeing someone you killed back affecting the outcome of the play so fast I don't see how that can be looked at as a good game mechanic. This is why the question of spawns has always been an issue and is probably the #1 problem with ball right now.

But again, I don't have an answer to this problem, I am still looking like anyone else. Right now in ball, as opposed to TBD, spawns can make or break a map. Make them too close to the goals and it's a stalemate, make them too far away and it becomes too easy to score. I don't really know where the sweet spot is or if there is an exact science to it. Either way, I think that something should be done or all the maps will always feel like they don't play quite right.

[Deathblade]

Originally Posted by r87

I strongly disagree with a lengthy re-spawn for ball. It will only slow down the action and encourage slaughtering the other team as opposed to out-passing and out-maneuvering.

Strongly oppose.

Not to mention it will further encourage being a k/d whore...they are annoying enough as it is. The fast respawn allows players to play aggressively, hell, even the somewhat defensive oriented whales should be closer to a midfielder than camping the goal.

Honestly, that's what I like about BALL...you don't have to tip-toe around and try to be super careful like you do in TDM or TBD, where deaths are actually a penalty.

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by nesnl

In TBD, spawn times allow for brief periods where a team can make a move, but there are still plenty of times that people spawn again prior to the other team making it to the base, and a lot of times it means spawning just in time to block the bomb. This element is actually quite similar to ball where people spawn and rush back in the hopes of just intercepting a shot on goal.

The problem here is the speed of the attacks. The bomb is carried by a single player, cannot be passed and slows the person down. In ball mode the ball can be passed to other players and self passed to keep your own speed up, thus making attacking a lot faster than in TBD.

I still think that a slight increase might work, but a drastically longer wait will indeed make team wiping (or even half wiping) basically an instant win

Originally Posted by Deathblade

Not to mention it will further encourage being a k/d whore...they are annoying enough as it is. The fast respawn allows players to play aggressively, hell, even the somewhat defensive oriented whales should be closer to a midfielder than camping the goal.

There is also one perspective seen here. The spawn times also greatly change the tactics required for different planes. The explodet is indeed more mid-field than goalie type with a faster spawn rate I think, and the loopy can be used for quick kamikaze like ball maneuvers, where as it would have to be played quite differently with longer spawn times.

It's hard to say what the exact results for each plane would be, but I guess testing is the only way to know?

[Mandrad]

Originally Posted by nesnl

The reason I think spawn times could use an increase is because as it stands right now you often kill a player 2, 3, 4 or even more times as you work your way across a map. When you are seeing someone you killed back affecting the outcome of the play so fast I don't see how that can be looked at as a good game mechanic. This is why the question of spawns has always been an issue and is probably the #1 problem with ball right now.

But again, I don't have an answer to this problem, I am still looking like anyone else. Right now in ball, as opposed to TBD, spawns can make or break a map. Make them too close to the goals and it's a stalemate, make them too far away and it becomes too easy to score. I don't really know where the sweet spot is or if there is an exact science to it. Either way, I think that something should be done or all the maps will always feel like they don't play quite right.

Although my experience with ball is... near zero! I will had my opinion and suggestion!

From things nesnl pointed, came to me the idea that "spawn zone" must be in the center of the map - i mean vertical and horizontal center of it!
If this happened, top of the maps wouldnt be for rental anymore!

In order to take the least possible space, i say, both teams will share the same space! - Would come from it a great mess and spam concentration caos! - I understand that, and noone wants it!
What if, planes that just spawned couldnt kill or be killed for 1 second?

Might this be the solution? Is it hard to code?

[tgleaf]

Mandrad, there is already a "no-kill" effect that lasts for a little while after you spawn. I don't know if it's a full second, though. I wouldn't want to see it increased.

[tgleaf]

The planepark_rev map is a big improvement. The game is much faster (I think we had 6v6 or 7v7 and it felt like a normal ball game rather than a SLOW one), there are more opportunities for scoring, and the consensus tonight was that this is a better map.

Thanks Maimer (and Mandrad)!

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by tgleaf

The planepark_rev map is a big improvement. The game is much faster (I think we had 6v6 or 7v7 and it felt like a normal ball game rather than a SLOW one), there are more opportunities for scoring, and the consensus tonight was that this is a better map.

Thanks Maimer (and Mandrad)!

I would like to host the rev version on our server, but didn't spot a download link in this topic nd have no idea on what servers I could go looking for it. Any help is appreciated. (Also, will this replace the current version as the official map in a later update?)

[nesnl]

Okay, Lamster and I have been messing around with some stats on each of the ball maps (well mostly him, I just make the maps), but we are looking for an "ideal" ball map framework. That means ideal length from goal to goal, ideal spawn locations, etc. The numbers that he came up with led me to redesign ball_planepark in these two new versions. I am looking for people to test them and see if they like them. They both are the same size (slight smaller side to side and slightly bigger top to bottom) but they have different objects placement. One is more open while the other has more of a horizontal channel feel to it.

Anyway, let me know what you think of these two maps. They are on the server: *Planepark Test Server. I am looking for some good feedback, more than just "Great Map!" or "Map sucks!" Does the map feel too small or too big? Are the spawns too close to the goal or too far away? Are goals happening too fast or too slow?

Thanks!

Oh, and here are the images of the new maps on the servers. Please tell me which map you are referring to (1 or 2) when you give feedback!

[Triped]

I played some 2v2 with Eso and a couple other guys. In general, I like #2 better, and I think the main reason is that hamburger bun surrounding the ball in #1. I guess it's there to disrupt the flow of the game, but I don't really care for it. Also, on #1 it's very easy to score from the middle of the map.

[Karl]

i wish that pink stuff didnt draw over the spawn area.