Can we discuss the balance between light and heavy planes?

[CCN]

This game has become so heavily tilted towards heavy planes it's unreal.
Light planes are relegated to 2 placements, the bomb runner and/or the spare 1 light plane for ****s and giggles.

A bomber is a supremely powerful tool to control area and get kills, A whale is the same. Trick used to be able to take pot shots and harass like crazy but much less now, removing one of the great annoyances to a heavy plane build.

Bip's really only have bomb running roles. Bomber does a HC's job, just better.
Miranda's are the paper dragons (assume laser) and as such can't go toe to toe, they run in and out (I agree a light plane shouldn't be able to stay and guard an area like a heavy plane) but its role is limited. Even the best Miranda's (Ingbo, Sin) are favored much less then the best bombers and whales. Having an average whale is supremely better then having a good miranda or biplane.

We constantly see builds around 1 light plane runner, 2 or 3 whales, 1 or 2 bombers, and maybe an acid loopy.

The balance in the game needs to be adjusted. I am not sure what can be done but I would think more along these lines.

1. Make camping 3 or 4 heavy planes less effective by making them have less utility elsewhere.
> Lower speed
> Lower bomb running capabilities
- Now they can be sniped more easily, it now becomes beneficial to run more light planes to play a shield like defense.

2. Increase the speed, slightly, of light pmlanes.
> Faster in and out hit and runs
- Can whittle away heavy plane camps
- It now becomes effective to run a tandem of hit and run planes

[DiogenesDog]

I think it's mostly fine except that I've been feeling lately like the Bomber is a little OP. there was this stigma attached to it for so long that I didn't see it much in competitive games, but now that more people (including myself) are playing it when it matters, the skill level's gone up and it's gotten a lot more obvious how nasty it can be.

make the bomber less effective in up close dogfights and I think the light planes won't have any problems anymore. from my POV, the tailguns (esp flak) could use a downgrade.

not like they have a big problem even now, and they're still a necessity for bomb running + random other stuff (acid or miranda harass are very nice for any team). I think the big swing just went from 2 heavies + 3 lights -> 3 heavies + 2 lights. I prefer the first composition, but it's not totally broken or anything.

[Sarah Palin]

More people feel this way these days.... because more people have been playing 5v5, in ladder.

The concern is not misplaced... That HP difference between light plane and heavy plane makes such a difference in 5v5. You definitely need heavy planes to win an even game. So explodet and bomber's place on the team is obvious. A lot of teams get knocked around the map because of weight issues - too many randas, loopies and biplanes.

ONE loopy can be a good addition to a team as it can do "anti-X" setups if the opposite team is too skewed (anti-whale, anti-randa, anti-biplane). Loopy setup really depends on the enemy team and a loopy who is sensitive to this can be a real problem solver to his/her crew.

Randa, well, people who mainline randa are generally VERY highly skilled players, good dogfighters, good runners. Also Ace+Laser = pwn.

Biplane, I don't really understand its niche in 5v5. As a loopy I don't think its "up close dogfighting" advantage is so huge.

[NomNom]

Heavy plane balance?

In a 5v5 - 4 heavy planes and 1 light plane, that's the balance.

[Stormich]

Teams with lesser players tend to use many heavy planes so they can defend and possibly manage a counter attack, don't see anything bad here. The better players you have the less you rely on heavy planes and the less you need to play a destructive game.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by Stormich

Teams with lesser players tend to use many heavy planes so they can defend and possibly manage a counter attack, don't see anything bad here. The better players you have the less you rely on heavy planes and the less you need to play a destructive game.

i quoted this post as i'm going to observe plane compositions between considered higher skill players to see if this pattern holds or not and post my observations here.

I would still think its more likely to be at least 3 heavy planes even in top level ladder matches but i'll double check.

[Stormich]

Usually it plays like that, of course it depends on maps too. Neutral bomb maps tend to have a higher explodet count cause you need to secure the bomb. And as Eso pointed out maps like Grotto which is still neutral doesn't really need more than 1 explodet since its so open so it favores either explo+bomber or explo+2bombers

[tyr]

ACE will prove you wrong as soon as APL3 starts. The players on my team know it : I hate using two explodets.
We rarely use more then 1 explodet + 1 bomber, except on a couple of specific maps where it's pretty much impossible to counter 3/4 fat planes without having 3 fat planes ourselves.
If you have more light planes than fat planes, it allows you to be much more aggressive and mobile, and you have to play on these strengths, to take positional advantage, surround the enemies and stuff. The general skill level on the ladder has risen, but I believe it's not high enough yet to do that properly, which is why light planes are indeed maybe a bit inferior to the rest for now.
But I assure you with absolute certitude that the light/fat plane balance is good.

[Jacques Strap]

Having 4 heavy planes on one team isn't fun to play against, but it sure is better than 14 loopies spamming and EMP'ing everyone.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Also Ace+Laser = pwn.

Glad I've established that :P

Originally Posted by Stormich

Teams with lesser players tend to use many heavy planes so they can defend and possibly manage a counter attack, don't see anything bad here. The better players you have the less you rely on heavy planes and the less you need to play a destructive game.

Lol, soft-insult at fLb.

Anyway, guys, put Ace Instincts on your light planes. It will solve all of your problems. Ace on lightys lets you get away fast enough to preserve your bars if things go south. Once you get inside/outside their attack range with 3 golds, you have a free kill. Not to mention, you provide an excellent distraction as you'll likely have a decent amount of their team trying to kill you and not focusing on the objective. Knowing this, you can lead them into ambushes for more free kills.

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

Anyway, guys, put Ace Instincts on your light planes. It will solve all of your problems. Ace on lightys lets you get away fast enough to preserve your bars if things go south.

Guess which other perk improves thruster speed and deceleration capacity, without needing three gold bars?

[CCN]

Meh i'll try going more hit and run annoying, bar preservation less in your face with my miranda. Maybe i'm playing it wrong.

As long as the light plane pilots don't have to be on a totally different level to be a match for heavy plane spammers its good.

[snivilous]

earlier i was playing 1dm and it was me in a bip vs 2 whales and 1 bomber all with full health. two of them were five stars, and one was a 2nd lt, I beat them all. so i don't think that the heavies are favored. there slow, not manuverable, and i personally think they lack firepower. anyone whos good with a loopy or bip can take down a whale or bomber, they just cant move fast enough i find.

[[FN]MONXY FIST]

Originally Posted by snivilous

earlier i was playing 1dm and it was me in a bip vs 2 whales and 1 bomber all with full health. two of them were five stars, and one was a 2nd lt, I beat them all. so i don't think that the heavies are favored. there slow, not manuverable, and i personally think they lack firepower. anyone whos good with a loopy or bip can take down a whale or bomber, they just cant move fast enough i find.

One time i killed alot of people with biplane, therefore i think biplane is the best plane.

[CCN]

Originally Posted by snivilous

earlier i was playing 1dm and it was me in a bip vs 2 whales and 1 bomber all with full health. two of them were five stars, and one was a 2nd lt, I beat them all. so i don't think that the heavies are favored. there slow, not manuverable, and i personally think they lack firepower. anyone whos good with a loopy or bip can take down a whale or bomber, they just cant move fast enough i find.

So what you're saying is, you were playing with people who haven't even got to 60 and you're comparing this to gameplay involving addicts with over 500 hours played?

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Beagle

Guess which other perk improves thruster speed and deceleration capacity, without needing three gold bars?

:3 We need you on more, Bagle.

Originally Posted by CCN

Meh i'll try going more hit and run annoying, bar preservation less in your face with my miranda. Maybe i'm playing it wrong.

As long as the light plane pilots don't have to be on a totally different level to be a match for heavy plane spammers its good.

On the contrary, you should me more in their face to keep them off balance. Balancing survival with disruption tactics is key.

[snivilous]

Originally Posted by CCN

So what you're saying is, you were playing with people who haven't even got to 60 and you're comparing this to gameplay involving addicts with over 500 hours played?

no, im saying that two were 60 with whale and i stilled kicked their asses with a bip which so i disagree that the heavies have a greater advantage

[classicallad]

Originally Posted by snivilous

no, im saying that two were 60 with whale and i stilled kicked their asses with a bip which so i disagree that the heavies have a greater advantage

oh well since you put it like that, that kinda wraps it up then really.

[Flyngbanana]

Originally Posted by snivilous

no, im saying that two were 60 with whale and i stilled kicked their asses with a bip which so i disagree that the heavies have a greater advantage

Being level 60 doesn't make you a good player. That is all.

[Zombi]

Originally Posted by CCN

1. Make camping 3 or 4 heavy planes less effective by making them have less utility elsewhere.
> Lower speed
> Lower bomb running capabilities
- Now they can be sniped more easily, it now becomes beneficial to run more light planes to play a shield like defense.

2. Increase the speed, slightly, of light pmlanes.
> Faster in and out hit and runs
- Can whittle away heavy plane camps
- It now becomes effective to run a tandem of hit and run planes

Hahahahah Are you high?
Ok, ok let's talk about balance:

- Lower speed and Lower bomb running capabilities for heavy planes.

- Remove tracking.


Do we agree?

[Zombi]

Double posting ftw

Originally Posted by CCN

We constantly see builds around 1 light plane runner, 2 or 3 whales, 1 or 2 bombers, and maybe an acid loopy.

Hahahahahah WAT??? I am the only one who constantly sees builds around 1/2 heavy planes and TONS of Loopies mindless spamming?

[[FN]MONXY FIST]

Originally Posted by Zombi

Double posting ftw



Hahahahahah WAT??? I am the only one who constantly sees builds around 1/2 heavy planes and TONS of Loopies mindless spamming?

Were not talking about official servers here.

[NomNom]

Originally Posted by Zombi

Double posting ftw



Hahahahahah WAT??? I am the only one who constantly sees builds around 1/2 heavy planes and TONS of Loopies mindless spamming?

We're talking about competitive play and ladder servers, not the 7v7 pubs.

[Zombi]

Originally Posted by NomNom

We're talking about competitive play and ladder servers, not the 7v7 pubs.

Ah ok, sorry.

[[Y]]

Just edit your first post instead of posting a second time.

And CCN was talking about competitive 5v5 (ladder games, most likely). Mindless loopy spam mostly happen in the pub servers (officials, non-officials, etc.).


edit- in the time it took me to post this, 3 people proved that they can type faster than me

[hurripilot]

I dunno, I'm beginning to just give up on Ladder as far as making a balance among aircraft. I think tyr hit it right on the head, more light planes = greater mobility, but it requires a level of skill and coordination that most of us don't yet possess. I still make the case that Biplane can be hugely effective if used correctly, but for now, it's just easier to load up your team with 3 or 4 Explodets/Bombers and 1 or 2 lighties to run bomb. People want their internet numbers to go up, so they do the things that make their internet numbers go up, end of story.

[CCN]

Integrated voice support, or if everyone was willing to go on the same vent server would help.

You need coordination, and while you get to know peoples play styles while in a team its much harder to learn everyone's through pubbie ladders. Its just not practical. Some better communication would help tonnes.

[hurripilot]

I wasn't necessarily saying that we need to be talking to each other in the ladders, what I meant was, we don't really have a feel for playing competitively with each other yet, so we can't coordinate as light planes. The heavies tend to idiot-proof the whole "working as a team" thing by having lots of health, area-effect weapons, and large mass, which makes working together easier.

The ladders would be a great place to try out new playstyles and new ways of interacting as a team, but because most people just want their stats to get higher, they go ahead and stack their teams with the Big boys so that their team functions more smoothly and they have a greater chance of winning.

You know what? That's absolutely fine. Trying out new stuff is difficult and while the urgency and intensity of the ladders would make a great proving grounds, that's not their function. They function as an individual proving ground and as a nice stat tracker. Maybe someday the players who frequent the ladder will be comfortable enough with one another to try some advanced light plane tactics together, but really, I don't mind so much if people want to just load up on heavies and bump up their stats. Do I think ladder games would be/are more fun with a greater number of light planes? Absolutely, but I'm a light plane flier, and I have a different definition of what fun is. When I said "I'm gonna give up on the ladders as far as light planes go" or something like that, I meant that I'm going to give up crusading for more light planes. My idea of fun is exploring the boundaries of team play and having good games with people I like, that doesn't mean that that is fun for everyone. Some people just wanna win games, and that's fun for them, and it's not hurting anyone really, so why the hell not?

[Triped]

Originally Posted by hurripilot

I wasn't necessarily saying that we need to be talking to each other in the ladders, what I meant was, we don't really have a feel for playing competitively with each other yet, so we can't coordinate as light planes. The heavies tend to idiot-proof the whole "working as a team" thing by having lots of health, area-effect weapons, and large mass, which makes working together easier.

The ladders would be a great place to try out new playstyles and new ways of interacting as a team, but because most people just want their stats to get higher, they go ahead and stack their teams with the Big boys so that their team functions more smoothly and they have a greater chance of winning.

You know what? That's absolutely fine. Trying out new stuff is difficult and while the urgency and intensity of the ladders would make a great proving grounds, that's not their function. They function as an individual proving ground and as a nice stat tracker. Maybe someday the players who frequent the ladder will be comfortable enough with one another to try some advanced light plane tactics together, but really, I don't mind so much if people want to just load up on heavies and bump up their stats. Do I think ladder games would be/are more fun with a greater number of light planes? Absolutely, but I'm a light plane flier, and I have a different definition of what fun is. When I said "I'm gonna give up on the ladders as far as light planes go" or something like that, I meant that I'm going to give up crusading for more light planes. My idea of fun is exploring the boundaries of team play and having good games with people I like, that doesn't mean that that is fun for everyone. Some people just wanna win games, and that's fun for them, and it's not hurting anyone really, so why the hell not?

Dude, practicing lights on ladder against favored planes for the greater good is what DLAM! should be all about. Two loopies, two biplanes and a miranda?

[hurripilot]

Well if DLAM wants to take a ladder and start kicking some heavy ass, I'm all for it! I still fly Bipe almost exclusively, ladder or otherwise. I just meant that I'm not going to whine about other people not using primarily light aircraft in their teams.

[Triped]

I always play acid in ladder.

Edit: and by "always" I mean "twice."

[nobodyhome]

I personally think that it's about time we discussed balance again. The ladder has created an environment for massive amounts of competitive games every single day, and to me, after seeing many of these games, some imbalances have come to light.

Notably, it seems that explodets are still a bit overpowered even after the nerf. It seems that whenever a captain's game is played, the good explodet players are always picked first, and if not, that team without them always tends to lose.

More often, the better plane composition seems to be 3 heavies and 2 light planes, but this is more often a fact of not having enough explodet players to go around. I've seen teams of 4 explodets and 1 loopy dominate (the loopy being there only pretty much for bomb running), but never teams of 4 light planes and 1 heavy. A "good team" will always have at least 2 explodets or more, whereas for any other plane, it's completely optional for them to even be in the lineup. For biplane especially, once you get more than one of them in the team then it starts to get redundant.

You might say that the game is "balanced" because every plane can be used, it's all situational, but the fact of the matter is that 3 heavies or more is necessary in any good lineup. I'd argue that the ideal balance would consist of one of the following two situations:

1. Every single plane composition is viable. 5 loopies can just as well compete with 5 explodets or with 1 randa 1 bip 1 explo 1 loop 1 bomber.

2. Plane compositions counter each other in a rock paper scissors manner. I.e. 5 loopies counter 5 explodets which counter a mixed lineup which in turn counters 5 loopies. This way, plane compositions will necessarily be dynamic and switch up often in the middle of the game, making this part of the game more strategic.

[ryebone]

The most important thing IMO is still map design. On maps such as grotto, cave, and asteroids (not even mentioning heights or fallout), there are so many obstacles around the bases that a few well placed remotes or thermos will completely blunt an offensive attack. On core, I tend to see a lot more loopies and biplanes taking advantage of the wider spaces. In short, most of the current maps favor heavy planes. Until this changes, heavy planes will remain the planes of choice.

[Triped]

Can the ladder guys give some stats on how often maps are played?

[eth]

Woods: 19 games played
Asteroids: 217 games played
Cave: 187 games played
Mayhem: 72 games played
Fallout: 27 games played
Grotto: 102 games played
Locomotion: 13 games played
Lost city: 32 games played
Middleground: 15 games played
Heights: 31 games played
Core: 202 games played

e: this can be seen on altitudeladder.net/masterlist.php, just sort by map name.

[Stormich]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

I personally think that it's about time we discussed balance again. The ladder has created an environment for massive amounts of competitive games every single day, and to me, after seeing many of these games, some imbalances have come to light.

Notably, it seems that explodets are still a bit overpowered even after the nerf. It seems that whenever a captain's game is played, the good explodet players are always picked first, and if not, that team without them always tends to lose.

More often, the better plane composition seems to be 3 heavies and 2 light planes, but this is more often a fact of not having enough explodet players to go around. I've seen teams of 4 explodets and 1 loopy dominate (the loopy being there only pretty much for bomb running), but never teams of 4 light planes and 1 heavy. A "good team" will always have at least 2 explodets or more, whereas for any other plane, it's completely optional for them to even be in the lineup. For biplane especially, once you get more than one of them in the team then it starts to get redundant.

You might say that the game is "balanced" because every plane can be used, it's all situational, but the fact of the matter is that 3 heavies or more is necessary in any good lineup. I'd argue that the ideal balance would consist of one of the following two situations:

1. Every single plane composition is viable. 5 loopies can just as well compete with 5 explodets or with 1 randa 1 bip 1 explo 1 loop 1 bomber.

2. Plane compositions counter each other in a rock paper scissors manner. I.e. 5 loopies counter 5 explodets which counter a mixed lineup which in turn counters 5 loopies. This way, plane compositions will necessarily be dynamic and switch up often in the middle of the game, making this part of the game more strategic.

I'm just gonna reply to the explodets being picked first part. They're picked first cause good explodets are hard to come by. People like Eso can stop a full team push alone. There's not a lot of people that good. A good sweeper is a great backbone for any team.

[Triped]

Originally Posted by eth

Woods: 19 games played
Asteroids: 217 games played
Cave: 187 games played
Mayhem: 72 games played
Fallout: 27 games played
Grotto: 102 games played
Locomotion: 13 games played
Lost city: 32 games played
Middleground: 15 games played
Heights: 31 games played
Core: 202 games played

e: this can be seen on altitudeladder.net/masterlist.php, just sort by map name.

Awesome, thanks.

Ok, first of all, that is depressing. Second of all, I don't think this really supports ryebone's point. Core (good for light planes) and asteroids (good for miranda, basically) are tied for 1st. Cave (good for heavy) is a close second. Grotto and mayhem are good for heavy but distant 3rd and 4th. Everything else is barely played.

So, it seems like the "light plane" maps are definitely getting enough representation.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Stormich

I'm just gonna reply to the explodets being picked first part. They're picked first cause good explodets are hard to come by. People like Eso can stop a full team push alone. There's not a lot of people that good. A good sweeper is a great backbone for any team.

You mean that explodets are so important they can single handedly swing the balance of entire games?

I think that supports the argument that they're imbalanced rather than the other way around.

[Sarah Palin]

So the vast majority of games are being played on Asteroids, Cave, and Core (with Grotto a distant fourth). Not really surprising.

Core is absolutely a heavy map. I am a whale noob and I have been more helpful to my team flying around the middle mining all the entrances than playing acid. Asteroids is also a whale's dream map. Cave is more open, I would say it's more of a bomber-oriented map (but you still need heavies). Grotto is a decent map. It's just so cramped at the ends. If it were more open like Cave it would be better.

I have played a few games where "light plane overload" (a rushing offense with many backup bomb carriers) overcame a heavy defense. This was most successful on Cave, Mayhem, and Fallout. On these maps there are several VIABLE bombing routes that are INDEPENDENT from each other. If a whale blocks one he is sorely out of position to block the other.

On a map like Asteroids or Grotto a whale can sit behind the nearest rock and block both the good routes indefinitely.

I am growing to hate Asteroids, it supports 4 planes basically:

1. Acid Loopy
2. Whale
3. Randa bomb carrier
4. Randa ratio ho

If you're not playing one of those, you're window dressing on that map. Maybe you can cut it if you're a REALLY good bomber. And this is the setup people look for in cappies: 2 whales who know what they're doing, 2 good mirandas (one to run the bomb, one to lazor), and a decent acid loppy.

On maps like Core, Asteroids, etc., well the team without a whale spends precious minutes arguing in teamtalk about who will whale, and if someone good doesn't do it, they lose, end of story.

In capt games pro whales are even picked before pro bombrunners.


EDIT: part of the problem maybe is that people vote yes on every map. Maybe vote no the next time someone suggests Core and you know you're outnumbered in whales.

[DiogenesDog]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

You mean that explodets are so important they can single handedly swing the balance of entire games?

I think that supports the argument that they're imbalanced rather than the other way around.

Well, I think Explodets are the most vital plane, and I don't see that ever changing. I don't think that's the same as being overpowered, though. I mean, after Explodets I actually think that having exactly 1 acid Loopy is the second most valuable thing you can have, but there's no frickin way they're overpowered. They're just nice because they're the one support class in Alt, so they basically buff everyone ELSE on your team.