The Loop and the Spam

[Funshade]

First of all... This game is awsome, and really fun to play.

This might be entirely different in non (1-59) but im more then open to discussion. The main thing i have noticed is a lot of the weapons in the game take up a considerable ammount of power. But thats good,

The biplane gets a few shots of a long range
The Explodet gets around 2 mines
The Maranda... well that charges
The Bomber gets about 3 gernades

The Loopy... gets like 5-7 Rockets in one burst

It doesnt fit the basic playstyle at all then you add the homeing aspect, AND the double rockets and its just fire and wait...

Im not asking to downgrade it, just to increase the damage of the rockets and aslo increase the power it takes.

[argonide]

Try the blue energy perks, also biplane has about the same amount of shots as loopy. Spam is definitely an issue though as it always has been... you probably just notice the loopy spam more since that is by far the most played plane in the under-60/bouncy/ball servers.

[Zombi]

Originally Posted by argonide

Spam is definitely an issue though as it always has been... you probably just notice the loopy spam more since that is by far the most played plane in the under-60/bouncy/ball servers.

Really? I had not noticed

[number 3]

i hate the idea of this, more spam, and alot more deaths. keep it the way it is

[Jacques Strap]

Originally Posted by argonide

Try the blue energy perks, also biplane has about the same amount of shots as loopy. Spam is definitely an issue though as it always has been... you probably just notice the loopy spam more since that is by far the most played plane in the under-60/bouncy/ball servers.

It is by far the most played plane in Official servers by level 60+ people also

[Evan20000]

Yo loops I'm really happy for you and Imma let you finish, but Whale and Randa are the most QQ'd planes of all time.

Loopy is fine where it is, imo.

[Zombi]

Well, I see two possible solutions:

- Nerf Loopy once and for all

-Change the game's name to "Loopytude"




EDIT: or "Loopy and Pals", "Tracking Spam Wars"...

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by Zombi

Well, I see two possible solutions:

- Nerf Loopy once and for all

-Change the game's name to "Loopytude"




EDIT: or "Loopy and Pals", "Tracking Spam Wars"...

One solution is also to notice that each plane has its uses and a pure Loopy team doesn't really work. In the same way that you could argue that a Loopy is a must for ball mode to carry the ball and score goals, you can also argue that an Explodet is required for the goal defense and a heavy hitting plane like a Biplane is needed to harass the enemy goalie, etc.

You wont get far with Loopies only. Show me a Loopy spam team that beats a well balanced team and I might consider Loopy to be overpowered.

[phong]

Originally Posted by Zombi

Well, I see two possible solutions:

- Nerf Loopy once and for all

-Change the game's name to "Loopytude"




EDIT: or "Loopy and Pals", "Tracking Spam Wars"...

I like this^

TBH the loopy is OP as shown by the fact that around 80% of the ships in a game are a loopy and people will naturally play OP ships. While other ships can do the same amount of damage none of them can do it as easily as the loopy (they require at least some type of aim). I also agree about it's rate of fire.

Double fire should not have homing capabilities and or at least not with EMP. In it's current state Loopy should be the last available ship, as with most games you would get the OP ship last not first. I refuse to play the loopy because of all this.

[Triped]

Loopy is a really well-balanced plane. I personally enjoy it, have an average record and don't feel bad about using it.

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by phong

TBH the loopy is OP as shown by the fact that around 80% of the ships in a game are a loopy and people will naturally play OP ships.

You are drawing pretty interesting conclusions here. Being popular isn't necessarily caused by a plane being OP. Popularity (on public servers) is influenced by how easy a plane is to fly and how early you get it. Since Loopy is the first plane you get to fly, a lot of players tend to stick with it since that's what they have learned to fly. A lot of players haven't really even tried the other planes. It's also one of the easiest planes to fly well, so that's another reason for it being popular. Flying a Biplane or a Miranda well takes a lot of practice, while almost anyone can just jump in and be quite effective with the Loopy.

Being easy to learn or popular doesn't mean OP. To decide if a plane is OP you should look into the hard core gamers choices, as the hc gamers are the ones who know the game inside out and prioritize any OP choices. In public games the reasons for being popular are very different. If you watch high level TBD play or even semi-gigh level ball play you'll notice that Loopy isn't played by 80% or more of the players, as teams realize the other planes are also useful, and they have the skills to fly those planes.

[WilliamDodd]

ok its true that loopy has more rockets than other planes but here the thing they are not nearly as damaging as the bombs from the bomber, the rockets from explodet, the charges form miranda, and the heavy cannon from biplane. the loopy needs its spam just to do damage. And on top of that the loopy is the most fragile plane in the game and is very easy to kill which makes up for the mass amount of spam. and heres another thing you should think about. IF YOU SAY that 90% of the players are loopys i think they would all agree with me and the majority of the altitude players will all be very upset if the loopy is changed and i think that 90% of the players are more important than the 10% who hate spam so just consider these things before you go ahead and change the whole face of the altitude game.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by phong

TBH the loopy is OP as shown by the fact that around 80% of the ships in a game are a loopy and people will naturally play OP ships.

What? Let's see... in competitive TBD, it's usually one loopy per team = 20%. In competitive BALL, it's often two to three loopies per team = 50% max. 80%? Sure, in a public server or in TBD/BALL matches where people are just messing around for fun. So I guess we should separate competitive OP (which it clearly is not) from non-competitive (where I still don't see it as OP, but people have argued on and on about this, so... we may just agree to disagree).

[Zombi]

Originally Posted by Triped

Loopy is a really well-balanced plane. I personally enjoy it, have an average record and don't feel bad about using it.

Of course, you just spam and your tracking gets lots of kills. It's very fun.

[phong]

Originally Posted by tgleaf

What? Let's see... in competitive TBD, it's usually one loopy per team = 20%. In competitive BALL, it's often two to three loopies per team = 50% max. 80%? Sure, in a public server or in TBD/BALL matches where people are just messing around for fun. So I guess we should separate competitive OP (which it clearly is not) from non-competitive (where I still don't see it as OP, but people have argued on and on about this, so... we may just agree to disagree).

What do you fly?

As a developer which would you cater to? The majority; casuals who just play for fun, or the minority? New players might as well assume this is looptitude since that will be the first thing they play and that the majority of 60+ play them as well.

[Triped]

Originally Posted by Zombi

Of course, you just spam and your tracking gets lots of kills. It's very fun.

I don't think we've played together.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by phong

What do you fly?

As a developer which would you cater to? The majority; casuals who just play for fun, or the minority? New players might as well assume this is looptitude since that will be the first thing they play and that the majority of 60+ play them as well.

It's the perennial question about which plane is better and which plane(s) are OP. As has been said on many other threads, the best players in each plane category can beat any player in any plane. Yeah, I tend to fly acid loopy or thermo whale, and as an acid loopy I can dominate _some_ players in non-loopy planes but it has a lot to do with the fact that I've put hundreds of hours of practice into it.

And I see your point about the majority of planes... yep, loopies dominate the scene. But I don't think that equates to them being overpowered. It just means they are popular... and for reasons that again have been stated over and over (e.g. easy to learn, tracking, good speed, good damage, decent armor, etc.). Where's Sarah Palin when you need her/him?

(By the way, I'm not against nerfing the loopy. Take out tracking, for example, and I'll still fly it. I just don't think it's needed.)

[Varonth]

To stop the spam it would be more helpfull to decrease the range of the rockets drastically.

This also goes for bomber, whale.

Biplane is on the edge, perhaps recoilless should get less range then dogfighter or HC since both got recoil which slows down the plane.

The uncharged randa shot should get a range decrease, while charged stays the way it is. The charged one (just full charged) should stay at the current range. It needs some time to charge up so you can't spam it.

Especially whales with their incredible unlimited range are really stupid.
But every plane will just shoot somewhere they thing an enemy is and often results in kills without even seeing your enemy.

The maximum range of most attacks should be sight range, so from the middle of the screen to the left or right border. perhaps even a bit less.

I think this would stop people from spamming without an enemy on the screen since it will often results in wasted energy.

[Triped]

Originally Posted by Varonth

But every plane will just shoot somewhere they thing an enemy is and often results in kills without even seeing your enemy.

Originally Posted by Varonth

I think this would stop people from spamming without an enemy on the screen since it will often results in wasted energy.

Which one now?

[Varonth]

Originally Posted by Triped

Which one now?

Did you actually read the post?


I said that this (my Idea of reducing the range) would stop spamming, since it would be energy waste most of the time.


At the moment its a easy kill most of the time.


Right now I often just shoot somewhere i think an enemy is... and often this results in a kill. Loopy with auto aim just makes this alot easier, but its possible with every plane.

So again...

Now
Shoot somewhere where you expect an enemy

With overall decreased range
Shoot when you see your enemy, so that your shot will reach him.

[mlopes]

Originally Posted by Varonth

To stop the spam it would be more helpfull to decrease the range of the rockets drastically.(...)
The maximum range of most attacks should be sight range, so from the middle of the screen to the left or right border. perhaps even a bit less.

This would feel like a completely new game, since in some weapons, like whale rockets you would be cutting it's range to something like 1/4 of the actual range. I think it would probably feel weird too, since no plane would have medium/long range weapons. On top of that, biplane would have an enormous advantage over all the others since it is more powerful at close range than any other.

Originally Posted by Varonth

I think this would stop people from spamming without an enemy on the screen since it will often results in wasted energy.

And that's the penalty for spamming, low energy when you need it.

[Zombi]

Originally Posted by mlopes

And that's the penalty for spamming, low energy when you need it.

Spammer's best friend.



And I stopped playing Killing Floor because of Sharpshooters ...

[Massi]

If loopy never spammed how would it even function? Loopy is a spam plane, its obvious but that doesn't mean its overpowered. If a loopy could only shoot when it saw an enemy it would survive more than 5 seconds, maybe. All the other planes have way more powered missiles/bullets but shoot fewer, so that makes loopy need to shoot more. Its not that hard peoples. Any plane can blow up any plane if the player is good. Learn how to cope with spam stay out of range, fly away when you see missiles (the missiles fly pretty slow), stay behind obstacles, be a high burst damage plane to blow them up quickly. If loopy had as much health as an explodet then it would be overpowered but it is the second most fragile plane in the game and can be blown up by:

• 1 Miranda dash-combo
• 2-3 HC shots
• 3 Bomber grenades
• 1 Well aimed Explodet missile
• ~7 loopy missiles
• and in about .4 of a second by a Biplane.

I don't know how much I have to stress this. Any plane can blow up any plane, it all depends on the player!!!
If loopy is so good why not play it?

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by Massi

If loopy never spammed how would it even function?

And just to bring another side to the argument: Loopy doesn't need spam to be useful. Just the other day we had a scrim against {ball} where our Loopy player had just barely unlocked heavy armor and didn't yet have double fire. Even though his kills weren't too massive, he ended up the mvp of our team in all but one game, as nerfed shooting in no way makes him a less effective ball carrier and goal scorer.

That being said, Loopy double fire isn't OP. I don't really care if the tracking is taken away from it as the Loopy still stays a useful plane. The killing just isn't what the Loopy is meant for. Tbh the slight added bonus that double fire gives you actually makes the game a lot more enjoyable for new players, and that alone makes the plane great as it is. It doesn't change the game for good players at all, and for beginners it makes it more fun. Where's the problem?

[Flyngbanana]

Most maps are open.
Open maps are loopy friendly.
Maps with many obstacles are not loopy friendly.
One solution: Create more maps with obstacles to make non loopy planes happy.
Profit?

[Funshade]

persoanly i find tracking and double fire about hand in hand depending on the map. on a few maps tracking lets you shoot 6 rockets out, look at some one and every single one of them instantly turn towards the person hitting them with about 4, the double fire reduces the turn rate of it and makes it harder to hit after fireing the shot, they are about 1-1 but im aslo kinda new.

A lot of the times i hear "Other things can kill it so easily" but thats a stat trade off and has nouthing much to do with the accual weapons of the plane. lets just thow out an example,

Two planes, Bomber and a Loopy are being chased or trying to avoid some sort of damage. the loopy can manaver away behind a rock much faster then the bomber, the bomber can take more damage.

Loopy = Avoid damage = less health
Bomber = Avoids less = More health

In truth from my expenerce from the game is the fact that everything kills, Everything. if any plane gets the jump on you, and spends there entire Blue energy to attack you with whatever gun they have. you will die. So how does this make any diffrence between a bomber and a loopy? The loopy's gun follows people to a pretty much unavoidable amount. i was useing the biplane and useing the main gun and it does a fair ammount of damage. but unless im middle of its full range chances are im not going to hit some one.

The bomber has to pridict where people go (if chasing some one) or their attacks will prove ineffective, same with explodet and the Meranda gennerly has to lead a little bit.

The loopy needs None of this, you shoot anywhere and if you just look at them the missiles will follow. and with the 6 missles it fires a loadout there is no need to make sure each shot hits, you just shoot and figure out the aiming later. but they way the loopy is balanced it on the same playing field as the rest of the planes with 1/2 the skill needed (no offence) im not nessarly saying this is a bad thing. just something to look at. but the loopy should be allowed the same level of play as the rest of the planes but probably require a little more skill to do so.

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A couple of ideas being thrown out there, some bad some allright depends on whos looking at it.

Fire and Forget
- have the missiles lock on for only the first 1/2 or 1/4 of a sec after being fired but so shooting them rapidly cannot reward later and it lets missiles be avoidable during a long distance chance

Laser... kinda
- after fireing missles holding down the primary will result in a laswer guided mode, all rockets will be directed towards the point the laser is hitting with much faster turn rate and/or speed then that of the current targeting. this will allow skilled players to use combo shots and pull off stunning attacks from around corners or just in general directions you assume people are (all plans do this a lot)

The Proxi homeing
- Rockets will fly straight until in the proximity of a plane. then attempt to follow it. (used on tracking not double)

[Jacques Strap]

I hate how often loopies are used. Most Official games that I play have at least 3 double fire loopies on each team. I also hate how they make up the vast majority of planes in ball games, making the 10 vs 10 servers a giant loopy cluster**** instead of a ball game with strategy and teamwork. (Yeah, I know that 10 vs 10 is unorganized, but the loopies make it even more ridiculous.) I'm not asking for a loopy nerf here. I am asking the community to realize that the loopy isn't the only plane in the game.

Also, please learn how to use the plane. If you want to learn about the plane and how to use it, go to eth's guide. Most loopies I see will fly into the center of the map on kamikaze missions, spamming emp and rockets. That's not how you even play loopy! It's meant to be a fast plane that takes skill and good judgment to be good at. Stop fluttering into the middle and pissing me off with your annoying rockets. By the way, 5-7 loopies on a team fails. A team of weak, wimpy planes will almost never beat a team with a good balance of all 5 planes. I'm not saying the loopy is useless, because it isn't. It is just really ineffective when most of the people on a team use it.</rant>


I've been waiting for an opportunity to say this for so long lol.

[mlopes]

I really don't see what's the problem here. If you go play the hero to your opponents side of the map, you'll probably will get bomb/mine/missile spammed anyway, people tend to want to finish you as quickly as they can, especially if you're wandering on a dangerous zone.

On your side of the map, if you team doesn't suck bad, the chances of a bunch of loopies manage to get there, and get the chance to spam, is slim.
If you meet 1 on 1 whit a loopy, any plane can easily finish him, and the loopy, having very low health, has to try and finish you quickly, hitting you 6 or 7 times, before you can hit him 2 or 3 times. But let's face it, 1 loopy firing can hardly be called spam.

The real problem is on public servers playing ball where nobody follows a tactic and everybody plays like if they were playing girls football (the one played with the feet, soccer for those who call football the other one played with your hands). Everybody goes after the ball and it's easy for a bunch of loopies to just spam the "parade" and score some kills. If you want not to get killed, just don't go into the mess.

Every plane has its own characteristics, and you must approach it with those characteristics in mind. The thing to keep in mind is, that you don't approach a loopy the way you do a biplane, explodet, miranda or bomber. You can get on its sides and rear but not in front of him unless you have shield (isn't this last part true for all planes?). Most other planes have rear weapons that make this even harder. It seems to me that on 1 on 1 with two equally talented pilots, loopy his always the underdog.

[Funshade]

Originally Posted by mlopes

Every plane has its own characteristics, and you must approach it with those characteristics in mind. The thing to keep in mind is, that you don't approach a loopy the way you do a biplane, explodet, miranda or bomber. You can get on its sides and rear but not in front of him unless you have shield (isn't this last part true for all planes?). Most other planes have rear weapons that make this even harder. It seems to me that on 1 on 1 with two equally talented pilots, loopy his always the underdog.

First of all... this game is pretty balanced. if two 'equally talented' pilots chances are its going to be a 50-50 chance on any plane mostly due to the loopy's speed. just thorwing the example out there if a loopy isent retarted he will put on acid if going agiesnt a explodet and sometimes a bomber to reduce the armor, giving the loopy the advantage and when i say advantage i mean even the playing field.

This Topic is not the fact that the loopy is overpowered as its not. its the fact that the loopy encrougages shooting missles at all times, everytime regardless wether their are enimes or not.

its the fact that you shoot 7 (x2 for double) rockets out into the open then when some one strolls along it auto targets them pretty much telling the loopy player "Oh hey, if i shoot more rockets i can kill some one FASTER if and when some one shows up!" when other planes like the bomber shoot three shots, hit nouthing then are out of energy when somthing shows up

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by Funshade

This Topic is not the fact that the loopy is overpowered as its not. its the fact that the loopy encrougages shooting missles at all times, everytime regardless wether their are enimes or not.

its the fact that you shoot 7 (x2 for double) rockets out into the open then when some one strolls along it auto targets them pretty much telling the loopy player "Oh hey, if i shoot more rockets i can kill some one FASTER if and when some one shows up!" when other planes like the bomber shoot three shots, hit nouthing then are out of energy when somthing shows up

I don't know how you can constantly afterburn AND spam missiles AND emp/acid your target. The Loopy energy reserve does allow constant spamming of the missiles, but then you wont be using emp/acid/afterburn. It's a trade off and you need to know what you are doing. You can't just set the 'f' button to be constantly pressed.

[elxir]

In good 6v6-8v8 ball games, there will probably be 3-5 loopys per team. However, I guarantee you that only 1-2 of those loopys will be near the top of the kill board.

Loopys are used a lot in ball because they are (a) the first plane so ppl are familiar with them, and (b) the fastest plane.

[Funshade]

Originally Posted by gemigemi

I don't know how you can constantly afterburn AND spam missiles AND emp/acid your target. The Loopy energy reserve does allow constant spamming of the missiles, but then you wont be using emp/acid/afterburn. It's a trade off and you need to know what you are doing. You can't just set the 'f' button to be constantly pressed.

When did i EVER say that? Im just staying that loopys encourages spam, by shooting rockets and then targeting some one tells people they do better shooting rockets wildly into the air. Of corse its a trade off EVERY PLANE HAS IT. the diffrence is loopys have guns that say 'Go for it, you can just target them later and kill them' you dont even have to time your shots to hit the person when your chaseing them, its spam rockets wherever you want and you terget them to make sure it hits

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by Funshade

When did i EVER say that? Im just staying that loopys encourages spam, by shooting rockets and then targeting some one tells people they do better shooting rockets wildly into the air. Of corse its a trade off EVERY PLANE HAS IT. the diffrence is loopys have guns that say 'Go for it, you can just target them later and kill them' you dont even have to time your shots to hit the person when your chaseing them, its spam rockets wherever you want and you terget them to make sure it hits

Err, you were saying that Loopies can just go around spamming missiles. This is incorrect if you want to be efficient, as if you are not where you need to be you should be using your afterburner, not spamming missiles randomly. Also when in combat you want to start with the emp/acid so if you've just been randomly spamming missiles everywhere you can't immediately emp/acid as you don't have the energy for it. It's a small wait, but it might cost you your life.

So basically: Yes, you can go around spamming missiles, but doing so only harms you. If the Loopy weapon encourages you to spam as you said, then that is actually HARMING you, not making you better.

Also, read the Sarah Palin link above.

[Funshade]

Originally Posted by gemigemi

Also when in combat you want to start with the emp/acid so if you've just been randomly spamming missiles everywhere you can't immediately emp/acid as you don't have the energy for it. It's a small wait, but it might cost you your life.

you have obviously been missing the point. and you assume that anyone not doing what your doing is just wrong. i was playing mahem and was useing the tracker on a loopy, i shot 4 missles just out of the blue as i was approching the middle, i see a biplane and all 4 of my missles turn a good 45 degrees i hit him with an emp and annother 3 missles, he was toast. before i even few by him.

Spamming missles before entering combat lets you regenerate the energy needed for more missles and emp's later. its fine if your trying to tell me its wrong to spam missles but every one does. But if your tring to convience me that loopys are not the class where spam is the biggest problem. thats going to be a much harder fact to sell.

[Zombi]

If the Devs don't want to nerf the problem, at least they should give us the possibility to choose

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2583

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Zombi

If the Devs don't want to nerf the problem, at least they should give us the possibility to choose

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2583

You actually can. Ever since the Feb 3rd patch, you can write a program that will automatically kick, ban, or move to spec anyone that spawns as loopy in your servers.

Good luck.

[Zombi]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

You actually can. Ever since the Feb 3rd patch, you can write a program that will automatically kick, ban, or move to spec anyone that spawns as loopy in your servers.

Good luck.

WTF How?

[nobodyhome]

Every time that someone spawns, the server records a log item in your_altitude_folder/servers/log.txt in JSON form about this particular spawn. You can attach a program to read this log file by using UNIX's tail command to automatically pipe new lines written to the file as an input to your program. Upon seeing this log item, you can acquire the perks that the player spawned. If you see that the player spawned with a loopy perk, you can then proceed to execute a command on that player by writing to the command.txt file in the same folder as the log.txt file. You can use the ban command, the kick command, or the assignTeams command (to move the player to spec) on that player as desired.

This program can be written in PHP, Java, C, Perl, or pretty much any programming language you wish. JSON is a pretty well supported format so you shouldn't have any trouble with that.

When you are done with this program and have launched a server with it, be sure to advertise it on the Dedicated Servers subforum so that everybody who doesn't like loopies can play in your loopy-free paradise.

[Funshade]

Playing as a specific classes useing Heavy armor and turbo charge. useing a mindless set of rules during ball
1. hold down weapon
2. Boost only if stalled
3. attack closest eneime
4. go after ball
5. if have ball go for goal


Loopy
Acid 16kills 39assists 17deaths
double 20 13 11
tracking 13 21 7

Bomber
Gernades 11 21 14
Bombs 8 13 9

Explodet
Mines 5 23 10

now aya most of them are pretty adverage execpt for Double shot loopy... with a 2:1 kill death ratio. thats not boosting or useing emp. thats a little rediculus

[gemigemi]

Originally Posted by Funshade

stuff

So you are basing everything on how well you play different planes? I can easily get a ratio of 2 with an Explo in a public ball game, and a Bomber can go as high as 3 if you only ratio whore. Loopy is actually quite difficult to keep up a high ratio if you move near the ball. Of course if you just run away hiding and kill lone smoking enemies any plane can get insane ratios, but that tactic can hardly be called spam.

All in all each plane is seen as quite balanced and useful in games. As said earlier, the popularity of Loopy is not based on how good it is, but in the fact that it's the first plane you get and thus the plane that most players primarily learn to fly. The real question here is if the plane unlocking and leveling up procedure could be changed so that you could get to other planes more quickly and level them so that you can play them efficiently without getting high levels. This is especially important now after ACE ranks, as older players are also forced to play Loopy due to level resets.