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| General Altitude Discussion Discuss anything Altitude related that doesn't belong in another forum. |
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#1
03-26-2010, 01:49 AM
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A serious biplane discussion
I think by now it has become widely agreed and almost unarguable that the biplane is somewhat underpowered (strictly speaking from a competitive 5v5 tbd view. I've heard that in 6v6 ball it is also underpowered but I am not qualified to talk about that). Almost all good players who used to main biplane no longer play biplane (with some notable exceptions like protestboy and hurripilot). I would like to take this time to discuss why the biplane is underpowered and what is the most reasonable way to go about fixing it.
Let's look at the roles that the biplane fulfills in a 5v5 tbd match: 1. Bomb carrying. This is one of the roles of a biplane that still makes it useful. Unfortunately, I think that both loopies and mirandas fulfill this role better. A time anchor randa in the hands of a good player (i.e. mikesol) is obviously a better bomb carrier, whereas a regular randa is better than a biplane because of its capacity to snipe from a safe distance as well as its superior dodging ability. A loopy has greater maneuverability which offsets its lower hp, and has the ability to contribute to its team in fighting by spamming emp and missiles at a safe distance (whereas a biplane can only effectively by going up close, not good when you're carrying the bomb). 2. Sniping key planes on the other team by swooping in with F+D. Here I'd also argue that loopies and randas fulfill the "sniping" role better than biplanes do. Loopies can eliminate planes just as quickly as a biplane can by dumping a full energy bar's worth of F, but can do it from mid-range (not to mention loopies own biplanes in a 1v1 situation, which happens very often because they are both planes that often fight on the fringe away from the main battlefield). Randas can also snipe planes, but they do it from a much greater distance, and safely from behind cover usually. Those are the biplane's main roles, which to me are done better by other planes. I also think that the greatest weakness of biplane is its inability to hold ground. Explodet is obviously able to control areas of the map easily, while bombers can control choke points with nadespam. Loopies can also control choke points with EMP or F spam. Randas can dominate tight areas of the map, and then shoot at you while safely snuggled up in their zone. Biplanes, however, by their nature fight by swooping in from a distance, killing their target, and then quickly getting out. They cannot last long in sustained fights. This is why there are many biplane players who consistently get > 1:1 k/d ratios but yet sit far in the lower end of the ladder--even though they are killing opponents, they are not helping much with the push. To me, since biplanes are inferior (by design) at the main components of tbd (map control, and pushing), they should be made better at dogfighting--that is, if a biplane and a non-biplane of equal skill encounter each other without interference, the biplane should win >50% of the time. I've also heard that part of why biplanes are bad is because current prevailing maps are unsuitable for biplanes. Eso has said that a map with more and smaller areas of control (focus) would be more favorable to biplanes, and maps that have large open spaces (grotto and mayhem) will also be favorable to HC. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this. What do you guys think? I'd especially like to hear the thoughts of notable good biplane players who have since quit using biplane competitively (BG1 and tyr, I'm looking at you). Remember to keep this discussion to the realms of competitive 5v5 tbd games only--try to judge based on your experience playing on the tbd ladder and not pub games or ffa's or ball. 
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#2
03-26-2010, 02:42 AM
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There's been a lot of discussion some time ago, where various people mentioned, that whatever ability you boost or add to biplane it will right away get better than some other plane, like miranda or loopy (here I mean those opinions about boosting biplane's maneuverability or fight power). All those proposals were leaned away. But damn it's a time to change something.
I really feel biplane have to be boosted somehow. Although I'm not Tyr or Monxy, I personally loved biplane and got almost 20 000 kills with it…Right now, with the new Ace system (when you can check your recent statistics), I've also noticed that I use biplane the least of all the other planes…simply because practice in it doesn't bring anything in competitive matches. I think we get a testing patch with a boosted biplane, which would get higher maneuverability rates, so that it can actually use other perks except for flex. Heavy armor and repair drone might just fix biplane's ability to survive and thus fulfill miranda's role to eliminate heavy planes. I'd also agree with Nobo, that in such test patch biplane's secondary weapon should be boosted. If biplane is a dogfighter - other planes should be really scared of it coming close, which is practically not the case right now. All of the other planes have relatively high chances to win in dogfighting against biplane. Loopy by emptying, Explo by pushing, well used Bomber's primary weapon can also easily kill a biplane, how may randa kill is obvious. Having a chance of killing biplane from a long or mid distance, other planes should really Lose to biplane on a short one. That's why I say - let's try boosting biplane's secondary and it's armor (then flex may stay) or maneuverability (so that it can use heavy armor or repair drone). And after a testing week we'll see how it works out. Last edited by Tosconi; 03-26-2010 at 02:44 AM.
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#4
03-26-2010, 04:45 AM
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After some initial thought (I'll form more opinions soon), I believe a rate of fire increase to Biplane's primaries would be a step in the right direction. This would enable Recoilless and Dogfighter pilots to put more rounds on a mid-range target before it can escape, and it would give Heavy Cannon pilots a more sensitive trigger, which helps with accuracy and follow-up shots.
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#5
03-26-2010, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
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#6
03-26-2010, 05:49 AM
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with no green or blue perks taken into account
agility/nimbleness: miranda > loopy > bomber > biplane > explo firepower, insta-killing ability: bomber > miranda > explo > loopy = biplane health: explo > bomber > biplane > loopy = miranda with the exception of biplane, all planes pretty much specialize in one strength, making up for their weakness in others. Biplane has no strength and is arguably more weak than strong in every category.
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#7
03-26-2010, 06:04 AM
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I think the obvious first step would be to reinstate the pre-nerf secondary damage for the biplane. A lot of what makes biplane unique is its devastating power when it is at close range. I never agreed with the decision to reduce that damage and also I dislike that the three red perks offer three different strengths of secondary. Most people don't realize that dogfighter is stronger than recoilless which is stronger than heavy cannon (speaking only of the secondary). I would like to see all those leveled out to an equal number and probably increased like 5% from where dogfighter is at right now.
Start with that and see how it feels. Then if it doesn't do enough look at other avenues.
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#8
03-26-2010, 07:02 AM
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just played some ball with biplane....
the only thing it's good at is picking off injured planes....but it's still not worth flying because loopy (and just about everything else) is better...+ faster and more maneuverable. killing a plane with full health was pretty impossible, holding the f+d combo behind a plane for like 3 seconds (difficult because of biplane's crappy speed and handling) was really the only way. without flexi, biplane was too slow and had bad handling, making it pretty useless as a ball carrier. loopy is better because it's fast. Explo and bomber are better because they're in the same ballpark of speed and handling, but have much better life. biplane pretty much needs flexi to be semi-competitive...all of it's weapons require better aim than maybe any other plane. Right now without flexi, biplane is too lame and slow to be able to effectively use it's weapons, which don't do enough damage to justify the terrible agility. biplane should either be given better handling, or better firepower.
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#9
03-26-2010, 07:10 AM
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Agree with Maimer on the boosting of secondary, maybe even reducing range a bit but and increasing the damage enough so biplane becomes the best point blank plane. Also I think there should be a boost to HC, atm I think it does 100% to first and 50% to second target. The secondady damage should be stronger like 66% to 75%. (Point of a player who used to play biplane almost exclusively in the days of old
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#10
03-26-2010, 08:16 AM
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How about reinstating the pre-pre-nerf HC (i.e., full piercing and buffed secondary)? XD
In all seriousness, although I wasn't wholly surprised to see it go, I never completely agreed with the reason it was nerfed. The way I looked at it was planes with exploding projectiles have a radial splash damage, whereas the piercing HC could be looked at as having a linear splash damage (not exactly, but that would give the biplane a larger AOE, compensating for its very focused firing pattern). Every other plane in the game has a weapon system that can affect multiple targets, whereas the plodding biplane generally cannot. As desirable as cutting randomness in the game is, there are some aspects that are inherently random by nature. Being the unintended target of crossfire is one of those. The difficulty in balancing the biplane stems from the fact that its effectiveness is very much dictated by the game type and the number of players. In some cases still, the biplane can seem overpowered, but in competitive 5v5 (and the point of this thread), it remains largely ineffective. I think a first step in leveling the playing field would be some type of speed/agility buff. It never made much sense that the bomber could technically outmaneuver the biplane. You really don't see many (effective) biplanes without either flexi wings or reverse thrust. In terms of weapon buffing, I would be careful in increasing the biplane's firepower, because that could have a larger imbalancing effect in non-competitive games. Buffing secondary, as many have suggested, sounds like a good start. Ever since the initial HC nerf, my 'd' button largely fell into disuse. It would be nice to have something useful there again. Buffing primary (either ROF or DPS) seems precarious, but what about extending piercing to every version of biplane? It may sound a little odd, but it would be a different kind of buff, making the biplane a little more unique as well. Ultimately, I think the biplane may need a combination of a speed/agility buff and a weapons buff. If you just increase secondary firepower, you still have to get in close to make the kill. The biplane really doesn't have the constitution to sit around and take fire. I'm not talking two substantial buffs, but I don't know if improving one facet alone will suffice.
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#11
03-26-2010, 10:01 AM
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I agree with many in that a biplane should be unmatched in terms of firepower when fighting up close, as that is where its niche is at, but we have to tread carefully here. If we make the biplane too powerful up close, we risk imbalancing it in the tdm and ffa modes, which is not TOO terribly important but should be considered.
I also agree that the HC's secondary could be slightly buffed. At the moment, it is almost entirely useless, except in a last ditch must-hit-enemy-plane-one-more-time-and-have-no-time-to-wait-for-HC-to-cool situation (lol hyphens). I also agree with redshift (innerlyte) in that it wouldn't be unwarranted to revert HC's piercing to pre nerf capacity (or even 100% pierce unreduced). As I see it, that patch was implemented to balance HC during a time when large scale ffas were much more common, where the piercing shot seemed much more random. However, that mode is no longer as prevalent, and thus we should not worry. Giving HC better pierce not only will give it the AoE ability it needs (miranda is the only other plane that lacks AoE, and even then, bounce shot is a form of AoE), but will allow HC to take on the role of sniping a bomb carrier in the back of a plane formation without worrying about being blocked. Lastly, we should consider making the turn radius of biplane better. This kind of buff is a skill-oriented buff that will make the biplane better at higher levels of play but little affect low levels of play. This has the added effect of making heavy armor or repair drone viable on a biplane, which not only gives more viable options (always a good thing), but also might help biplanes in the sustained-fights department.
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#12
03-26-2010, 03:32 PM
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An agility buff for biplane would go a long way into balancing it.
As for increasing burst damage, that would seem unfair to other planes, I dont think its a good idea. Instead reduce its energy use(a lot), so that you can fire longer bursts by staying on your opponents tail (like a real biplane).
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#13
03-26-2010, 03:49 PM
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Possible buffs
-increase turning speed -constant secondary damage for all red perks -increase secondary damage -reduce energy costs (long distance canon, machine gun, HC) -increase percentage damage for HC's pierce -increase the number of planes HC can pierce before the projectile loses momentum Not saying that every one these should be implemented, just listing all the possibilities. Feel free to add to the list.
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#14
03-26-2010, 07:49 PM
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I don't really have the expertise to comment on dogfighter and recoilless, but HC has been just slightly outclassed by loopy and bomber for some time in most game modes. Flexi HC is a slightly worse heavy loopy and HA HC is a slightly worse HA Bomber.
Really all it needs a slight boost to turning speed. That would be a minor boost in the gametypes where it's strong (such as ffa and tdm,) but a major one for TBD (and 1dm, I suppose.) Biplane is torn between flexi and heavy armor, with each it really feels the lack of the other. It currently turns at a rate of 6.5 to Bomber and Miranda's 7, but I'd like to see it draw even.
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#18
03-26-2010, 11:14 PM
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On the other hand, an HC buff could maybe bring Bagle back to Altitude...
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#19
03-26-2010, 11:22 PM
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 My opinions have changed about a couple of Biplane things. I agree with Eso that making Biplane's turning speed even with Miranda and Bomber would be a good step. Bringing the old pierce back to HC would also be quite useful and would help Biplane to find it's role in competitive games. As for Dogfighter and Recoilless, I think just a buff to damage output would be nice, especially for Recoilless. Those two perks rely heavily on Hit and Run, or "Energy" tactics, so they need to be able to put a serious hurt on their target up close, as they can't stick around in the engagement area for very long. Also, someone back there had the idea to give Recoilless and Dogfighter pierce capabilities. That might be something cool to tryout.
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#20
03-26-2010, 11:26 PM
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Oh wells. Looking forward to the patch.
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#22
03-26-2010, 11:56 PM
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How about this:
Remove the ability to fire with F+D, raise short range machine gun damage and make both the short and long range mguns use less energy. I feel using F+D doesnt make sense, since there's really no choice to make there, you never use D alone.
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#23
03-27-2010, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
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#24
03-27-2010, 12:40 AM
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Primary(recoilless): (38 damage / 260 energy) * 1000 energy (full bar) = 146 damage Secondary(recoilless): (26 damage / 120 energy) * 1000 energy (full bar) = 217 damage There is often a meaningful choice: F+D allows you to choose burst damage over efficiency.
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#25
03-28-2010, 05:07 PM
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my biggest gripe about the biplane is that it's really lag-unfriendly... you rely so much on swooping in and slamming people with damage, and this just doesn't work with my ping (I often die before the damage kicks in because it's so timing-sensitive). when I play with it on euro servers it's so much more powerful it's crazy. but there's not much to be done about that, I'm just bitching. :P
as far as actual changes, I'd say it doesn't need much. bump up the agility slightly and maybe one small other buff (could even see going with something small like recharge rate, which would let players shoot around with their primary without as much fear of being caught with their pants down). esp if bomber gets the minor nerf that it probably deserves, that'll be enough I think (although I also think I'd go a different direction than most would want... I'd bump down tailgun damage so players can't rely on it so much and it becomes more of a pure teamplay plane for pushing/area control that has more of a weak spot in the rear. but uh this is the biplane thread, so I should shut up about this.)
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#26
03-28-2010, 05:51 PM
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I completely agree with buffing biplane's damage but not its agility. The thing about biplane's current mediocre agility is that it forces you choose between flexi or Repair/Armor. The difference in the two green perks makes a lot of difference in one's gameplay and these are the small stuff that makes biplane special. p.s~I use D only when up close.... hurts like hell:P
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#27
03-28-2010, 11:35 PM
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I think that the biplane is by far the most fun plane to use. This is true even if it is a bit weaker than some of the other planes in many aspects. The weakest being that it is hard to gain and keep map control using it. What causes this is that the maneuvering of the plane eats up all of its energy. When i have outmaneuvered my enemy and have them in my sights i often lack energy to fire my guns.
I believe reducing energy cost for maneuvering and for firing the secondary weapon could help with this. I do however think that an increase in energy or a direct buff of the primary weapons could encourage lame biplane tactics. It is already a bit too rewarding to just blind-firing the HC (and recoilless) into the distance. I am really glad to see that the developers are looking into this. /Kurbits
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