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#1
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Time anchor as it is now is nowhere near balanced. Only the very best of players in numbers greater then 1 have any chance of stopping a half decent anchor, making 90% of the ladder population completely helpless. Euro players are not capable of playing anchor due to ping issues, so a large portion of the community cannot even use the plane to any affect. With proper training it may very well be more manageable however due to lack of practice partners, lack of will and lack of know how the vast majority of people have no means of defense. While I am sure its fine in officials due to large amounts of players (7+) being able to just mob it down, however in its current incarnation it is just sucking the fun out of the competitive game. Past nerfs have had no effect whatsoever on its performance and with it being unable to be used by half of the population I am more in favor of its removal then simply nerfing it, but something for certain needs to be changed.
Last edited by Kuja900; 09-16-2010 at 09:33 PM. |
#2
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QQ 10 chars,
in a nutshell, EMP and well placed thermo/nades. |
#3
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ye i completely agree with this... i wouldnt go as far as saying that it should be removed but as kuja says past nerfs have really not changed anything... theres a BIG gap between the best time anchors and the overall best runners in the game and like whats said before euro players cant even play it well since our ping is higher and therefore our response time to dmg etc will be higher... obv this could be resolved with playing on euro servers and whatnot but since ALL competative servers are non euro this is so imba that its just meh....
![]() edit: oh even considered stopping to play altitude just cause no one can match runners like donk and mike and they just turn teams overall uber imba by being so good at anchor as they are. Last edited by Ingbo; 09-16-2010 at 09:42 PM. |
#4
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only the best players even have a chance of being effective with time anchor
defending it requires discipline and teamwork |
#5
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Players who put sufficient time into it will reach this point, numerous players have. The affect that one plane can have on the game is too great and renders all other forms of bomb running completely obsolete.
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#6
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numerous players aka donk and mike. the other time anchors in the game are difficult to deal with, but stoppable.
nerf the player, not the plane. pretty sure also that a decent acid loopy does wonders in stopping time anchor bombing. |
#7
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Mike and Donk are not gods among men, there are plenty of players that are comparably at equal or greater skill levels. Thinking that two people have completely transcended the game is illogical. Its just the the tool they specialize in, the time anchor, is over powered and once you reach a certain minimum skill level it becomes completely unreasonable to play against. I am not denying that it is difficult to reach this point however once you do the plane completely breaks the game and becomes the sole option for running.
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#8
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I would also like to clarify my initial statement of removing time anchor all together may have been a touch harsh. I suggested it because of its unpopularity with the newer crowd which the devs have been known to try to appease and the fact that its not usable if you have a foreign ping.
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#9
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I personally feel that time anchor is not OP. Sure the anchor itself could use maybe a bit of an energy nerf but regardless it can be stopped. The reason why it seems so dominating in altitude is because people simply fear it. As you have said in game kuja and many others, there are often too many situations where an anchor is anchoring behind cover and the entire defending team is sitting there circling while no one is flanking.
Sure this takes a lot of trust but any good team can do it. Anchor in ladder may be a bit OP because teams are not used to working together but I don't think the plane itself is OP and it won't dominate APL. |
#10
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The biggest problem right now with TA is its mobility with almost no downside.
Specifically, when faced with opposition, a TA has 3 defensive choices: A) Warp forward twice B) TA C) TA and then Warp forward twice These are way too many options for 1 bombrunner to have. If this is unclear, I'd be happy to go further into it but I think it's self explanatory. I also disagree with the notion that TA is simple to defend against if you're good / have team work / right plane comp / etc etc etc. Defending against TA involves having GOOD light planes who can push the TA forward with GOOD heavies who can control the area in front of the base. This is assuming that the light planes can kill the TA or the TA support before they are killed. Speaking as a lazer, this is incredibly difficult (and lazer is arguably one of the best planes at killing support). If I focus on the TA's support, I usually get one kill. Now, the problem with TA is that if all the light planes get 1 kill, the TA still has two options. He can A) Try to beat the heavy, which he can accomplish the easiest of all bomb runners or B) delay indefinitely while waiting for his support to come up again while the defending team is too afraid to push back out (and rightfully so) for fear of getting bombed by the TA. I also disagree with the idea that there are only 2 OP TA's out there and thus, it is a balanced plane. How many OP Loopy runners are there? How many OP Biplane runners are there? How many OP non-TA randa runners are there? Silly argument that can be easily rebutted. Sorry if my argument are a little incoherent, I've been drinking and I needed to write this quickly so I can get to other things. I'll be watching this thread though if I need to clarify or add anything. |
#11
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While I wouldn't say it's unstoppable, I wouldn't be opposed to exploring other options then a nerf as long as we don't jump the gun. I've thought about this for a while before posting and analyzed the anchor carefully before jumping to a conclusion.
My issue with it is how it near completely removes a game mechanic; running. Let me put it this way, running a bomb with a conventional plane is about knowing when to commit, when to fake out, when to evade, etc... Time anchor completely removes the risk of overcommiting with its reset button. Time anchor has exactly 3 "hard counters" that stop it: HC, trick and acid. Trick requires that the TA engage it in a 1v1. Also, the trickster needs to be considerably better at dogfighting then the TA to effectively counter him all game. While this does promotes personal skill on the part of the trick player, it sadly changes his role into "kill the TA" and removes his/her ability to be useful in other ways to the team. HC has the same problem as trickster has. Acid is the closest we have to a true answer, but that only limits the anchor's options. It still usually takes a second plane to finish it off after its attacking routes have been blocked. The choice between dedicating a plane to eliminate another or forcing a 2v1 to suceed provides a significant advantage to the TA team just by having one plane play a certain perk. While depending on your personal definition, that may or may not constitute overpowered, but you cannot deny it's over-centralizing. This is less devastating the more players you have, but in 5v5 TBD it has proven to be gamestopping in some cases. In the past, this has been offset by lag and causing the TA player to be unable to dodge everything. However, encouraging lag abuse is certainly not the route we as a community want to pursue to counter a single plane. Additionally, the presence of a TA will lead to an increase in explodet presence and in turn, longer games. Whether this is good or bad is up to you, but with the right map, we can get upwards of hour long matches because of a single plane and the ripple effect it makes. What causes the TA to be so devastating? In my experience, the strength of it's ability versus it's energy cost is the key factor. In any game, any character that can move extremely quickly or teleport is a powerful one if played properly. Heck, this is what makes tricks and lasers decent runners; they can doubleteleport past the opposition at a critical moment. The difference between this and the TA is this doubleteleportation costs one (1) metric-****ton of energy. On top of that, the TA retains the skills of it's cousins. To further add to the status of this plane, it maintains fantastic defensive versatility as well because it keeps the trickster's weapon. A skilled TA can easily go fly around, slaughter the enemy team, get 3 gold bars and bomb the base for massive damage with relative ease compared to any other plane. My proposed fixes: -Remove bounce shot from the TA's weapon like laser. -Increase the energy cost of the warp to be comparable to a forward warp. Last edited by Evan20000; 09-17-2010 at 02:43 AM. Reason: Fine, no humor for this srs post. :( |
#12
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thread summary: dear donk, you got so good you broke the game.
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#13
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It wasn't Donk. This problem has been hopping around in the back of some people's heads for a while, but after Mikesol went inactive it was ignored, more or less.
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#14
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TA in itself obviously won't be removed but i'd really like to see it nerfed in some kind of way and when i say nerfed i mean making it balanced as any other plane, and not like decreasing it's energy recharge rate by 5%.
If TA wouldn't be far more superior than everything else people wouldn't really notice it, but we're here and we're voicing our displeasure with this overpowered perk because we have witnessed it for too long. Pardon my weak english, it does need a buff.. |
#15
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It seems odd that one plane can sometimes prevent an entire team from leaving its base due to the threat of the bomb.
Suggestions to nerfing its weapon is irrelevant as the perceived issue is the mobility of the plane. |
#16
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The problem with the plane is that it's too versatile and undercosted. The sheer power of the weapon doesn't help matters.
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#17
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TA is so strong right now that it isnt even funny. In all games i played in ladder with the top TAs our entire team has to focus on keeping one player, in a way overpowered super mobile plane, in shack while his entire team can do whatever they feel like to help him out. Its definately not reasonable that it is this way. No player should have an advantage this big.
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#18
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Also, how much do you want to bet that the essays Smush and I wrote will be ignored? D: |
#19
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#20
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I have to agree really sin that hurt my eyes lol
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#21
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I'm taking college writing, I can't help it! D:
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#22
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Don't worry sin, I thought your writing was beautiful. <3
Though a couple of line breaks to let the eyes rest couldn't hurt. ![]() |
#23
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Done. Now please don't rule10 me anymoar. ^^
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#24
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i have trouble with time anchor and a half decent time anchor guy raping pros is something i can't imagine
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#25
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Instead of (or alongside) a nerf to the perk's abilities, how about making the TA anchor (the line+arrow that TA users see behind their planes) partially visible to everyone? Then TA players wouldn't abuse the reset button as much because he knows that everyone else knows where he's going to anchor to.
Last edited by [Y]; 09-17-2010 at 03:45 AM. |
#26
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#27
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Don't forget that the laser and trickster have the best juke-lobs in the game to make up for it
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#28
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wat......?
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#29
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I don't even know where to begin with my thoughts. I'm very conflicted on the whole thing. Part of me tentatively agrees that some aspects are indeed overpowered. However, I also think you're exaggerating just how unfair it is. The nerfs have indeed hindered the plane in the past. Us time anchors have had to step up our play to match those nerfs.
I recall playing a 1v1 against esoteric and tying after like 20 kills where he cycled through every other plane. He could easily match my time anchor with any one of the planes. I know many other people who could either beat me 1v1 or at least tie me in it - all of which are some of the best players in the game. I also know how during many matches I get destroyed by hc, acid, emp, some explodets, and tricksters like sinstar. Without my team to support me against those - I'm nowhere near as effective. I think you're addressing one of the biggest issues I have with ladder altogether - people can't work as a team very well. I really hate going into games where I don't know what the plane setup is going to be. I try and cycle through planes to find the one that best fits the team. Sometimes time anchor is that - but not always. It's unrealistic to expect that time anchor should be balanced around 5v5 random teams - which is what it seems like you're upset about. In actual competitive play (clan vs clan) - it seems to be a lot more fair in my eyes. Perhaps it's because there really hasn't been any of that lately that people are so upset. But that also brings up a good point - what *should* this game be balanced around? Should it be clan matches? Should it be simple play in official servers? Should it be ladder? If it is ladder or 1dm I'd say yes - time anchor is a bit overpowered. Let's be fair though - many of you could still pwn donk and I in 1dm and in many situations in ladder. I wish people didn't make us out to be some kind of gods. Without a team we wouldn't win - simple as that. I guess I'd like to see what people are suggesting as far as a fix. Often times it seems like people want to remove some key parts of a plane to begin with. Making it so you can't kill with time anchor or whatnot is fairly lame and basically makes the plane to be even more of a bomb carrier role. Taking away it's ability to move well reduces it's overall effectiveness and limits people who want to use it for something besides bomb carrying. PS: It's late and I wasn't able to convey my thoughts so well. I'll try and add more tomorrow. Last edited by mikesol; 09-17-2010 at 06:08 AM. |
#30
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The anchor simply has too much effect for one player. Its the plane not the player. Lets look at donk, for one week in ladder he played straight trickster and his rank dropped from 1 to 10 and within two days of anchoring again his rank once again climbed to one. Without the plane the players rank decreased, as his actual level was not at that rank.
Now I know you addressed its use in clan matches, which balance has never been done around but thats regardless as the imbalance is still just as blatant. Many teams will try to just hold the anchor at bay with explodets and try to pick it off with other planes and against an anchor thats reached a certain skill threshold he can last long enough for his support to grind down the opposition consistently. The anchor is so ridiculously difficult for any team to pin down that it frequently is able to successfully bomb the base in 1v3 situations. Its just not right for one plane to completely shift the dynamic of the game and to so far out class each and every other bomb carrying option. Every public game is random teams v random teams and makes complete sense to balance around that, the problem still exists in 7v7 just not to the same degree. It still completely outclasses every other plane and is the most viable choice beyond question in every situation. It completely changes how a defense plays defense and no public opponents are going to fail to fall for even the most simple juke. Last edited by Kuja900; 09-17-2010 at 06:48 AM. |
#31
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Also please note I am solely addressing tbd, the problem does not exist in ball due to faster respawn times not allowing the anchor time to stall long enough for support to grind down the defense.
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#32
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TA is still damn powerful in ball, but not to the extent that it is in TBD. Also, removing the bounce doesn't keep you from killing since most TA's use their shot as a point defence weapon anyway while keeping their target inside their anchor's range to be able to appear behind them at any given point. This doesn't require the bounce and it shuts up the "TRICK IS UP!" crowd by giving the plane something unique while not actually making it stronger. Two birds with one stone imo.
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#33
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TA is tricky to balance because its unique play-style and high skill cap make comparisons difficult, however consensus seems to have emerged on one point: TA is dominant as a bomb carrier. On a theoretical team with maximally skilled players of every plane, it's hard to imagine using a non-TA to run the bomb. Dominating choices like that tend to discourage diversity in perk choices, strategies, etc -- so it looks like a tweak is in order.
There are probably a few ways to fix this, but a nerf to the primary weapon would specialize the TA even further, making TA play less fun/diverse/dynamic. While great in 1v1 dogfighting, I've never felt that TA constituted a particularly overpowered killing presence in a typical team match [very good within a specific unique role, but not too strong overall] -- the issue is more that it's such a dominant bomb mover that the combined dogfighting capability becomes overwhelming. I am strongly leaning towards a highly specific "with bomb" mobility nerf -- e.g. "while carrying a bomb ... (anchor energy cost increased) AND/OR (anchor cooldown further increased) AND/OR (anchor length is reduced)". The unique (and IMO very fun/interesting) capabilities of the TA will remain intact, and can influence the battlefield in dramatic ways (there's nothing like an anchor back to grab a loose bomb and finish a run, or wall an entire team on a "clear" run) but tempered by with-bomb modifiers, those abilities will no longer produce a game-breaking must-go-to long distance bombing run carrier choice. Thoughts? Last edited by lamster; 09-17-2010 at 07:57 AM. |
#34
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Good time anchors now use turbo, which while less effective then trick at killing are now not that much underpowered in killing. Especially with their high win in small fights 2v2 and under.
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#35
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Edit: If TA going to be nerfed can we also deal with the problem of acid being underpowered, and having even less of a role with the TA nerf. Accentuating this point, only one team even has primary acids on their roster and the team captain thinks acid sucks. Last edited by CCN; 09-17-2010 at 08:35 AM. |
#36
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This sounds like a great solution balancing wise, but i think this sort of nerf would make ta even harder to learn/master. And you can only try to adept to the changes, when u r actually bomb running which could result in a lot of "wasted" bombs
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#37
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if we're going to be buffing a plane it still should be the biplane, honestly. |
#38
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TA might be OP in TBD (not saying it is or isn't) because TBD is played 5v5 when it should really be played 6v6. 5v5 is lame - get a couple kills and voila! Base hit. I think the game isn't balanced around 5v5 TBD anyway.
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#39
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You play mostly biplane Nobo. Storm, I dunno what he plays anymore when he comes on for 10 minutes a week. The fact of the matter is, when you watch games, the amount of acid loopies competitively is about 2, with some part timers at best. Which shows some sort of difficulty difference, as people actively choose away from acid. The style is difficult. I really wished people's belief about acid > emp would translate into players playing acid > emp? or switching from biplane to acid or generally having more then 2 people who actually main the plane. Situationally a average ladder player can pick up laser and own it up against a 4 heavy build, and situationally average ladder players can sometimes pick acid in related acid dominant spots and be effective with it. What about every other spot, that part timers don't use acid in? Last edited by CCN; 09-17-2010 at 10:35 AM. |
#40
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lol ccn, bringing acid into every post you make, acid is just fine as is. The thing you need to realize now that you dont have 250 tracker missiles is that you need to be more strategic about attacking.
Regarding TA I do agree it's overpowered and I'm not really sure what you can nerf on it without it becoming useless. I've been thinking about the possibily of an EMP negating your anchor for the duration of its effects but I feel that would push acid even farther away from competitive play. The other thing I've been thinking about is creating a cooldown between anchoring and warping, it would make TA use the anchor ability sparingly and not just anchor -> double warp into a completely different passageway. |
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