Remove Time Anchor

[Cloud]

sup
first game should be balanced for 5v5 competitive tbd (clan vs clan more so then ladder) imo, second i was allways for TA nerfs, now not as much, but while u give them that i feel there should be a nerf to other randas second abilitiys while running bomb cos they too have similar efefct as TA (not as much but still) in handeling a bomb better then other planes. And i say that as mostly lasor user.

edit: acid is fine, i play it sometimes and do same as any other plane i play competitive

[CCN]

Originally Posted by Stormich

lol ccn, bringing acid into every post you make, acid is just fine as is. The thing you need to realize now that you dont have 250 tracker missiles is that you need to be more strategic about attacking.

Apart from the fact that I don't play DF emp loopies, ever, due to them being imba, rendering your comment about me and 250 tracker missiles = wtf, you basically said that DF Loopy is way easier to be effective with than acid.


Once again, I put to you, if it is fine why are there so few acid players? Is it not so much fun? I've given my opinion, as an acid player, up to others to listen or not. Though every opinion is biased, mine from my planes perspective, others form biplane or miranda perspective. And few who have played acid to any significant extent.

Though I would like to test one thing out, if Cloud would agree, could he play his next 10 games as an acid loopy. If his ladder stays same/goes up slightly/down slightly then I can see form someone else perspective they feel it is fine and this would provide good support for this, if it changes significantly there could be some truth to where I am coming from.

[classicallad]

@ CCN, i don't feel acid is underpowered at all, i can count on 1 hand the amount of loopy players that use the plane effectively in 5v5 TBD, but thats 5v5, the majority of new players stick with loopy and embrace DF as a god perk, 'wow double the firepower!' loopy is cool as sheeet tho we know it.

@Nobo, could you explain more why you feel Biplane is still in need of a buff?

It just dawned on me, i only recently discovered that Altitude wasn't balanced around 5v5 but 7v7, and i would like to get some people together and try some competitive 7v7 for experimental reasons.

after much deliberation, and let's be honest, my first post was an attempt to troll Kuja, i do agree with the points made about TA and in its current state 5v5 TBD at least it is too dominant as a bomb carrier.

peace

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

The anchor simply has too much effect for one player. Its the plane not the player. Lets look at donk, for one week in ladder he played straight trickster and his rank dropped from 1 to 10 and within two days of anchoring again his rank once again climbed to one. Without the plane the players rank decreased, as his actual level was not at that rank.

hmmm, this is true but if this happened to say ingbo where he couldn't use laser to run and only loopy instead, or flight could only use randa peoples ranks would drop so this example only can only be useful to a certain extent!

Having donk in my clan makes me automatically a little nervous as to what nerf might take effect, however as lamster pointed out it is anchor with the bomb that is the biggest issue for people and the nerf ideas seemed interesting.

Something that surprises me is the fact that acid is a plane that people say is great at hindering time anchor yet I cant think of more than 2/3 people in the game that actually try to become 'pro' at it where there is obviously a niche that any clan would welcome a decent acid player with anchors being the best bomb runner at the minute. Therefore I'd like to encourage people to try this more!

One of my worries about any nerf is that it might be done during the next apl in which case it wont give much time for anchor bomb runners to adjust to it!

Just to add to this post it was added after TC scrimmed fLb loads and won basically every game with relative ease ^^ [TC being owner of donk]

anyway cant think of anymore right now, not too sure how much sense this might make i just woke up.

nipnip

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by lamster

TA is tricky to balance because its unique play-style and high skill cap make comparisons difficult, however consensus seems to have emerged on one point: TA is dominant as a bomb carrier. On a theoretical team with maximally skilled players of every plane, it's hard to imagine using a non-TA to run the bomb. Dominating choices like that tend to discourage diversity in perk choices, strategies, etc -- so it looks like a tweak is in order.

There are probably a few ways to fix this, but a nerf to the primary weapon would specialize the TA even further, making TA play less fun/diverse/dynamic. While great in 1v1 dogfighting, I've never felt that TA constituted a particularly overpowered killing presence in a typical team match [very good within a specific unique role, but not too strong overall] -- the issue is more that it's such a dominant bomb mover that the combined dogfighting capability becomes overwhelming.

I am strongly leaning towards a highly specific "with bomb" mobility nerf -- e.g. "while carrying a bomb ... (anchor energy cost increased) AND/OR (anchor cooldown further increased) AND/OR (anchor length is reduced)". The unique (and IMO very fun/interesting) capabilities of the TA will remain intact, and can influence the battlefield in dramatic ways (there's nothing like an anchor back to grab a loose bomb and finish a run, or wall an entire team on a "clear" run) but tempered by with-bomb modifiers, those abilities will no longer produce a game-breaking must-go-to long distance bombing run carrier choice. Thoughts?

I like the idea of an energy cost increase while carrying the bomb. Thanks for hopping onto this thread the day of creation, Lam. ^_^

Not to go off topic, but...

Just to add to this post it was added after TC scrimmed fLb loads and won basically every game with relative ease ^^ [TC being owner of donk]

When was this? Every game I played we either went back and fourth or we owned you. Have you been playing without me? D:

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

When was this? Every game I played we either went back and fourth or we owned you. Have you been playing without me? D:

2 nights ago i think you were the onlyyyy one missing hahaha it was like 6/7 games to 1 I think or something silly!

[A Nipple]

on topic with lamsters ideas I think implicating all those nerfs at once might be too much!
imo either the energy cost one alone or make the length of warp less, that way the radius of acid will be more effective!

Not to be too much of an ass but could it be done like tomorrow lawl that way donk can practise for apl4 =D! lawl

nipnip

[classicallad]

Im sure they will start testing soon, and players such as Donk, Juin, Mikesol would be perfect subjects, i think where this is concerned some private testing should be done as opposed to just seeing how it goes.

Nips, please try not to dwell too much on clan politics, this is a discussion about TA not Donk.

[Evan20000]

We should work to remove this misconception that it's 1-2 players causing this nerf when it's really not; it's the plane itself. Either way, I like Lamster's idea and think it is worth testing.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by classicallad

Nips, please try not to dwell too much on clan politics, this is a discussion about TA not Donk.

Its also down to the implications it has on tbd therefore league an clan play = donk/mike and any other anchors out there! in terms of private testings I am sure mike and donk would both be willing to scrim on opposite teams or in apl servers once its done and other people would be willing to participate e.g. anyone posting on here!

nipnip

[classicallad]

yep, count me in, i'll arm my remote.

[Smushface]

Haha, Acid is fine as is.

I like Lamster's ideas. Its getting to the point where I feel that my team is starting with a huge disadvantage by not having a TA.

[Zombi]

Remove EMP first

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Zombi

Remove EMP first

yea EMP should go maybe u could give explodet anchor to please?!

nip =]

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by A Nipple

hmmm, this is true but if this happened to say ingbo where he couldn't use laser to run and only loopy instead, or flight could only use randa peoples ranks would drop so this example only can only be useful to a certain extent!

Having donk in my clan makes me automatically a little nervous as to what nerf might take effect, however as lamster pointed out it is anchor with the bomb that is the biggest issue for people and the nerf ideas seemed interesting.

Something that surprises me is the fact that acid is a plane that people say is great at hindering time anchor yet I cant think of more than 2/3 people in the game that actually try to become 'pro' at it where there is obviously a niche that any clan would welcome a decent acid player with anchors being the best bomb runner at the minute. Therefore I'd like to encourage people to try this more!

One of my worries about any nerf is that it might be done during the next apl in which case it wont give much time for anchor bomb runners to adjust to it!

Just to add to this post it was added after TC scrimmed fLb loads and won basically every game with relative ease ^^ [TC being owner of donk]

anyway cant think of anymore right now, not too sure how much sense this might make i just woke up.

nipnip

A bit of change of tune you have there nipple, what happened to your resolve: http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3746

All the pure dissenters, minus nobo, have been from TC and have a clear bias because of them having one of these perceived imba anchors on their team. Please keep this thread subjective. Also why do people think acid is a hard counter to anchor? In my opinion thats just a myth, I personally prefer emp.

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by Cloud

sup
first game should be balanced for 5v5 competitive tbd (clan vs clan more so then ladder) imo, second i was allways for TA nerfs, now not as much, but while u give them that i feel there should be a nerf to other randas second abilitiys while running bomb cos they too have similar efefct as TA (not as much but still) in handeling a bomb better then other planes. And i say that as mostly lasor user.

edit: acid is fine, i play it sometimes and do same as any other plane i play competitive

agreed so nerf all randa then

and there is a big big difference even in clan v clan games i dont know how mike etc assumed that this was mostly pointed out to going to ladder only. You should see fLbs scrim results vs TC when they are not using donk vs when they are using donk. The difference is pretty mind boggling (think like 6-2 or something when they are not using donk in fLb favor and maybe 7-2/7-1 in TC favor when they are using donk). And i would like to consider fLb crew to be at least "somewhat" more competent against defending against TA than ur average ladder lineup.

I can say very confidentely that i dont believe that there is any other player in the game but maybe donk (and mike) that can have this impact as far as just adding in one player in a team and then completely changing the outcome of clan v clan games against (imo at least) one of the best clans in the game. I think we all need to put the worshipping aside and realize that an effect this big cant be explained by pure skill. As kuja said earlier there are plenty of top "pros" that could have an effect on teams that are positive (Id like to include myself here) but no one even gets close to touching donks (and mikes depending on his shape now since he never plays) effect he has on teams and thats just cause no one can touch that plane in general. Its just too god damn good.

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by classicallad

Im sure they will start testing soon, and players such as Donk, Juin, Mikesol would be perfect subjects, i think where this is concerned some private testing should be done as opposed to just seeing how it goes.

Nips, please try not to dwell too much on clan politics, this is a discussion about TA not Donk.

While this could be true its pretty easy to see how fragile such testings would be if 1 or more of these players would not want to see a nerf happening

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Ingbo

While this could be true its pretty easy to see how fragile such testings would be if 1 or more of these players would not want to see a nerf happening

Yeah the problem is a lot of players would not leave their personal agendas at the door.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

A bit of change of tune you have there nipple, what happened to your resolve: http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3746

All the pure dissenters, minus nobo, have been from TC and have a clear bias because of them having one of these perceived imba anchors on their team. Please keep this thread subjective. Also why do people think acid is a hard counter to anchor? In my opinion thats just a myth, I personally prefer emp.

I dont disagree that it needs a nerf. All I am saying is that all the nerfs lam suggested (which all seem great) would be too much all at once, maybe the last one and the 2nd one! or just the 2nd one!

Secondly for someone who points out we are bias... this was posted after TC beat fLb 6-1 I think in scrims. In all honest fLb were completely off form e.g. wolfe playing bip... therefore obviously this would annoy you especially you who hatesss loosing one game let alone 2! lol

Anyways I look forward to testing vs the new anchor, kuja suggested a testing squad for future =D

nip

[Kuja900]

Ive been preaching the nerf of anchor for months, I even am the one who convinced you to make the last anchor nerf thread.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Yeah the problem is a lot of players would not leave their personal agendas at the door.

But theory doesn't purely work alone so people cannot be ignored or disregarded!

niper

[classicallad]

I'm not denying that your team is strong Nipollina but i was left scratching my head also when my team when down 6-0 to you guys, lets be honest now.

Don't want to detract away from the subject here too much but seriously, at least in 5v5 the sheer amount of options both attacking and evading the TA has is ridiculous.

I think i'm right in saying there are probably say 35-40 players in competitive TBD that know the game very well and have skill to match, there is little between these players, also i refuse to believe that in TC's case they are 'just better'.

Just to clarify, this is not an attempt to be negative about any persons or teams, we all know each other and get on pretty well, for which i'm glad. =)

[Kuja900]

Now lets talk about what nerfs should be implemented since we are now for the most part agreed upon that a nerf is in order. In my opinion, to build off what smush was talking about, the biggest problem with anchor is that it just has so many defensive options. So limiting the amount of these defensive options down to something reasonable is the main priority. This makes the most essential nerf in my opinion an increased energy cost so an anchor cannot have so much insurance on their life when pushing, but that is not to say that nerfs should stop there as lamster's other suggestions sound very interesting. I am skeptical if that alone however would make other forms of bomb running (loopys, tricksters etc) comparable to anchor.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by classicallad

I'm not denying that your team is strong Nipollina but i was left scratching my head also when my team when down 6-0 to you guys, lets be honest now.

Don't want to detract away from the subject here too much but seriously, at least in 5v5 the sheer amount of options both attacking and evading the TA has is ridiculous.

I think i'm right in saying there are probably say 35-40 players in competitive TBD that know the game very well and have skill to match, there is little between these players, also i refuse to believe that in TC's case they are 'just better'.

Just to clarify, this is not an attempt to be negative about any persons or teams, we all know each other and get on pretty well, for which i'm glad. =)

seems fair enough, though i have to say the skill level of tbd has been better in the past with flb an ace so it can happen. Also its relative to the form of players on that day as thats a variable! Though i'd say KLF played pretty well that day! I can accept a nerf seems fair just the way its gone about, we don't want to just rape it with nerfs! in all honesty when I play v the best anchors mike or donk yes i find it hard and sometimes they would beat me, saying that if i am on decent form I find it possible to stop them mostly a matter of knowing how and reading their play which comes with practise and also I found playing a bit of anchor myself to get the general idea!

One of the hardest situations I can imagine for people is when anchor is trying to counter and a player has to drop back from a push to def in which case it proves difficult to defend against a good anchor!

We could disagree on anchor all day. Obv people will be bias etc! the general consensus seems to be a fair nerf would be good and the ideas lams put forward seem great imo especially that the nerfs would be only whilst bomb carrying, that way the anchor can still have some killing effect on the field while nerfing it in the specific and only area people find frustrating!

I think its a matter of scrutinising those ideas and getting input from people as to which ones or one would be good!

I would say the 1st alone to start with and if people feel a nerf is still needed the 3rd! but all 3 I would think is too much! however its mostly a matter of trial an error!

nipnip

[Ingbo]

Ye i also think that smush so far has best pin pointed the superiority of the anchor by showing all the different things it could do defensively when being attacked such as;
AWW (anchor warp warp), anchor turn around, boost speed down anchor warp upwards, warp anchor warp (killing other randas very efficiently) etc etc. I could obv go on but the rest is basically just algebra combos of AWW (such as WWA (warp warp anchor)).

Note that all of these 'weapons' of the TA doesnt just make it extremly allusive to kill, it also makes the other team spend a ton of energy trying to hit it running most of them low on energy for when the TAs support actually arrive. Think the only way to make it not imba is to (imho) 'remove' the third choice so that it cant have 3 combos to work with in every situation its in with full energy (which is something that good TAs is obv gona strive for as often as they can). I know that energy wise this might not add up instantly (as in they dont have enough enerergy to do it right away) but since the effective time it takes for them to have all these choices available (the 3 im talking about) is so low that effectively in every situation they are in with full energy they do have all of these choices to pick from.

[A Nipple]

After speaking with cloud a nerf on randas whilst they have the bomb with a higher energy cost would be great as at the minute they are without doubt the number one bomb carrier and after flight i cant think of anyone else that runs with any other plane!

nip

[banana]

You could always buff the other bomb carrying planes to make games go faster.

[Cloud]

suggestion: increase all randas second ability energy cost while carrying a bomb or ball (if nerf is needed there too).

so put energy cost of "D" that way so with ultracap u cant do "aww" combos but only "aw" and need to wait a bit for second warp.
in this case we will get more cooldown on those combos that seems to be a problem but wont wound randas ability to dodge ..
as it stand now "aww" takes all your energy and most of it its warps so if increasing second ability isnt enough maybe increase warp energy while carrying bomb a bit too ..

i think its good idea hope lamster reads it

[Kuja900]

I don't see why you think it should be only when carrying the bomb, its not like its fair in any other encounter either. That nerf alone sounds too lenient, depending on energy cost increase that is ofcourse.

[Cloud]

dont start with that now.. this thread was bout anchor running not miranda plane overall.. which got it nerfs too many times anyways and is fine as it is

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Cloud

dont start with that now.. this thread was bout anchor running not miranda plane overall.. which got it nerfs too many times anyways and is fine as it is

I was referring to only time anchor, the rest of the randa variants are for the most part fine with their energy/speed balance.

[Cloud]

while that could be true for anchor (only a little bit), i'm for nerf on all mirandas .. and i see problem only with bomb running and anchor is fine even if that helps em a bit

[A Nipple]

if its only with the bomb it seems quite a reasonable nerf in fact biplane recoilless could give more splash damage when it has bomb then!

[Kuja900]

Im not for different behavior of one's plane when carrying/not carrying a bomb. It would make there be an "off" feel everytime one has the bomb and decrease performance. For example take the explodet, if you play with flex wings for a bit then try to use heavy armor there is an extreme awkward feeling caused by the change. That feeling of awkwardness to some extent would happen every time the randa picked up the bomb.

[Smushface]

I agree with what Kuja says about awkardness. And believe me, Kuja knows a bit about being awkward. Also don't touch my lazer.

I think an energy cost increase on TA (say to 1.5x what it is now) and a small increase to its cd (like a second) will still make it viable but not OP.

Also upvote my green plane thread in this subsection.

[Cloud]

about awkwardness .. now when miranda has bomb its warp is shorter and TA has its cd incressed i belive so its just a thing u get used to lol.. like all planes are slower with bomb .. its different but isnt awkward!

[A Nipple]

awkwardness is not true. If u play a plane u get used to how it is you learn its not like your playing biplane then it would morph into a splodet once u pick up bomb its the plane u picked bomb up with every time before hand! and the decreas or increas etc took effect every time!

[Pieface]

Since when has this been a discussion about nerfing randa running in general? My experience both in ladder and clan scrimmages is that while the miranda can be a very effective runner, so can other planes and it really comes down to the skill of the player. However, having a decent TA on your team elevates your chances of winning by a ton. No plane's ability should get to the point that it has the potential to win a game with minimal help from its teammates.

The nerfs lam suggested seem viable to me. Might be a good idea to start with an increase in cooldown or energy usage for each anchor and see how things go from there.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Pieface

Since when has this been a discussion about nerfing randa running in general? My experience both in ladder and clan scrimmages is that while the miranda can be a very effective runner, so can other planes and it really comes down to the skill of the player. However, having a decent TA on your team elevates your chances of winning by a ton. No plane's ability should get to the point that it has the potential to win a game with minimal help from its teammates.

The nerfs lam suggested seem viable to me. Might be a good idea to start with an increase in cooldown or energy usage for each anchor and see how things go from there.

Yeah I'm really confused at why cloud is trying to bring randas in general into this. This thread is solely about the absurd imbalance that is anchor bomb running and there has been no evidence presented to warrant the nerf of the other randa variants.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Yeah I'm really confused at why cloud is trying to bring randas in general into this. This thread is solely about the absurd imbalance that is anchor bomb running and there has been no evidence presented to warrant the nerf of the other randa variants.

I dunno when u think bout it, name more that 1 person who currently runs as a regular runner without randa? flight? besides that its very minimal and in fact in ladder I learnt laser just for bomb running and it helped me get a lot higher I think the general idea isn't as such to make randa worse but to encourage players to use other planes to bomb run and diversify the field a bit more! in terms of bomb running!