Biplane Is Useless

[Kuja900]

Currently the biplane has no role to perform in competitive play, I am referring mostly to dogfighter/recoilless however heavy cannon is also of questionable value in the competitive arena. Every other plane in the game has a unique identifiable feature that gives it a certain advantage (emp/tracking, explos control over movement, bomber spam arc, etc). A team tries to allot their members with a certain balance of planes each with a specific purpose. At this time the biplane has no role that only it can do. There are other planes with the appropriate identifiable traits that are more suited for any role one can come up for with for the biplane to perform. It is a jack of all trades and this unfortunately leaves it a master of none. The key to fixing the biplane in my opinion is not just to tweak already existing stats but to give it a new unique feature.

One possible suggestion, and this is with very little forethought as I came up with it in a conversation with nipple earlier on the fly but what if the stall prevention/recovery and turning were jacked up. This would allow it to re assume its bomb runner role that it had long ago.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by ModernArcher

Quote removed by a moderator

I care, so there goes your argument. Kuja has a valid point and if you weren't too busy h8ing you would see it. Kuja I agree and I think biplane should get a major buff.

I think I heard Sin suggesting that biplanes should be able to launch tactical nukes.. That should make it useful again.

[ModernArcher]

Originally Posted by Boko

I care, so there goes your argument. Kuja has a valid point and if you weren't too busy h8ing you would see it. Kuja I agree and I think biplane should get a major buff.

I think I heard Sin suggesting that biplanes should be able to launch tactical nukes.. That should make it useful again.

no i just meant that she said it has 'no role in competitive play'
Blasphemy!!
it is useful, ive seen many a player get destroyed by a passing bipe
i do think it should get a buff, that wasnt the part i disareed with
bipe is a really good defender

[Boko]

Originally Posted by ModernArcher

no i just meant that she said it has 'no role in competitive play'
Blasphemy!!
it is useful, ive seen many a player get destroyed by a passing bipe
i do think it should get a buff, that wasnt the part i disareed with
bipe is a really good defender

Not as good as a defender as an explodet, in any way.

[ModernArcher]

maybe, but still with that recoilless its powerful

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Boko

I think I heard Sin suggesting that biplanes should be able to launch tactical nukes.. That should make it useful again.

lolololol

Anyway, the biplane has no clearly defined role and is outclassed by another plane at whatever job it attempts to preform. I think Bip should be put back into the role of bombcarrier like in the days of old.

[Beagle]

Maybe its not the plane that needs to change but the strategy that employs it, or in other words, stop making this exact same argument every week, no-one cares about theorycrafting when we can go watch games with Bip in it do fine instead

Also don't **** with the stall recovery or you make it a piece of **** to rev in as it depends on stalling to work

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by Beagle

Maybe its not the plane that needs to change but the strategy that employs it, or in other words, stop making this exact same argument every week, no-one cares about theorycrafting when we can go watch games with Bip in it do fine instead

Also don't **** with the stall recovery or you make it a piece of **** to rev in as it depends on stalling to work

Play moar Beagle. You were one of the few good bips. We miss you.

[nobodyhome]

Just chiming in here to say that if it gets decided that a fix is to be made, the thing about reducing afterburner's energy consumption is the way to go (this was done slightly last patch).

Doing this would:

1. Allow the biplane to better get in close range and still have energy left to fire (for recoilless/dogfighter) and also allow it to get out of stall easier (for dogfighter/HC).

2. Allow the biplane to be better at bomb running.

3. Fit in with lore (biplane is a wooden plane which should be lighter = takes less energy to thrust).

[Evan20000]

Hurri, you need to write more then 2 unspaced paragraphs just to burn everyone's eyes.

Unfortunately, there is a bit of truth to this. Sadly, biplane just doesn't see a lot of play in APL/FFL compared to other planes. And I think Nobo's suggestion would be the most practical to implement.

[mikesol]

I'd like to remind you all that this suggestion forum is not the place to get out your angers. If all you're going to post is a hateful comment please refrain from posting at all - as I will simply remove it and (potentially) infract you. Thanks

[DMCM]

Anyway, we've had this discussion dozens of times and despite the many buffs and changes, the problem remains. With the weapons it has, Biplane will never be more than a melee plane which really has no place in a competitive match with good players using any of the other 4 planes that can wipe out any Biplane from a distance. Heavy Cannon can overcome the disadvantage because of its long-range high damage piercing gun. Recoiless and Dogfighter, however, cannot. So instead of changing its weapons or even its energy consumption, I suggest a role change. If (hopefully) TA really does get a serious nerf, then I suggest an experimental buff to Biplane's speed and turnability to make it more or less like loopy with flexible wings, or maybe even more, only seeing it in practice will tell. I think that would make the Biplane a credible alternative to Miranda (TA or otherwise) for bomb running and it's the easiest way to give Biplane a usefulrole in competitive TBD. It would also help out in ball where Biplane gets annihilated in the fast pace and can't even compare to Loopy.

[Stormich]

IMO make it slower (so as to compliment the turning increase, don't want to go overboard with buffing), increase turning and decrease afterburner energy usage which would result in it being a good team runner since speed isn't the main trait when you have support. Better turning would aid with the running but would also give biplanes an easier way to get into position for F+D. The afterburner would help in ways Nobo already mentioned. That's for the normal solution.
The radical one would be to make biplane invulnerable to EMP which is the main reason biplanes loose in open combat, 1 emp and you're a sitting duck to whatever plane is in range.

[Greekjr14]

I probably sound like an idiot saying this, but here it goes. (this comment only applies to HC, the other forms of biplane should get a buff as mentioned above). I don't seem to get how biplane can be "useless" because I here of how HC is so "OP". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like a really big oxymoron if you ask me.

[hurripilot]

Originally Posted by Greekjr14

I probably sound like an idiot saying this, but here it goes. (this comment only applies to HC, the other forms of biplane should get a buff as mentioned above). I don't seem to get how biplane can be "useless" because I here of how HC is so "OP". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like a really big oxymoron if you ask me.

Well the problem is that these terms are subjective. "OP", when not determined using hard data, is a matter of perception.

For example, a significant proportion of the community view TA as "OP". Now, if you look at any hard data about Time Anchor, you don't really see anything that would make you say "that plane is overpowered", however, due to the skill of players such as Donk and Mikesol, as well as their level of activity and their reputations, coupled with TA's ability to reward extremely skilled play with enormous bombing benefits, many people have the perception that Time Anchor is overpowered. One must remember to consider X factors as well. Time Anchor looks very strange when it flies, and defeating it requires unusual thought processes, as it moves in atypical patterns when compared with the other planes in this game.

Now, when we look at Heavy Cannon, we can see a similar situation. Nothing on paper would suggest that HC is either OP or UP, but once again we can see a divergence among player opinion based on perception. Some players see an HC Biplane and think that it's OP because it is able to deal a large amount of damage in a small amount of time, and it can do this at a considerable distance. Also, it's small and fast, and there for hard to hit. Others view HC as UP because it does not have any tricks like rear-facing weapons or instantaneous warps which allow it to escape tricky situations, or because they don't think it excels in any one "role" in the game. Couple this with the fact that the only really active competitive HC in the game (me) tends to dick things up quite a bit, and we can now see where the conflicting views on HC come from. One the one hand we have a plane that looks like it would be as much a threat as any of the others, but on the other hand, the only example of the plane being used in the current competitive meta-game is a poor one.

(this is the part where Maimer, Beagle, and Eso start playing the game regularly again so they can show us how HC is really used )

[andy]

Originally Posted by Stormich

IMO make it slower (so as to compliment the turning increase, don't want to go overboard with buffing), increase turning and decrease afterburner energy usage which would result in it being a good team runner since speed isn't the main trait when you have support. Better turning would aid with the running but would also give biplanes an easier way to get into position for F+D. The afterburner would help in ways Nobo already mentioned. That's for the normal solution.
The radical one would be to make biplane invulnerable to EMP which is the main reason biplanes loose in open combat, 1 emp and you're a sitting duck to whatever plane is in range.

Making it invulnerable to emp would be a good way to go, but it still would need to affect it in another way (just how rubber hull makes u get more damage) otherwise emp would become actually useless in those situations.
So something along the lines of making emp do 60 damage on biplanes (any kind) but it would not affect anything else.

[Pieface]

How about reducing the effects EMP has on biplane while not removing them completely?

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by hurripilot

Well the problem is that these terms are subjective. "OP", when not determined using hard data, is a matter of perception.

One derivable fact is the lack of not only effective but biplanes in general in the competitive arena.

[innerlyte]

I've been saying this for a while -- One reason why biplane becomes less usable in the current competitive environment is because it cannot effectively engage a group of targets. In a one-on-one situation, it's probably the last plane I'd want to run into, because of its sheer firepower and decent maneuverability, but since it does not really possess any AoE weapons, its edge ends there. That's why I always push for pierce. The one-on-one play does not change, but the piercing ability would help subdue larger groups as well. Every other plane more or less has an AoE weapon (don't forget about the miranda's warp). So, I suppose this is where I again say restore pierce.

Giving biplane a different unique ability might be interesting too, though. I'm just spit-balling here, but what if the biplane could cloak an ally bomb indicator when within close proximity to it (but not when carrying a bomb)? I haven't really thought it out, but I want to get different ideas out there.

[elxir]

i already made this thread

the best anyone could come up with was epic boosts to damage and stuff

that happened

still sucks

biplane needs a unique weapon that affects things other than then health of the enemy.

[[Y]]

I suggest that damage dealt by biplane shots (both primary and secondary) can't be healed by repair drone, forcing the player to run back to the base to heal.

With this, no anchor nerf would be needed, as well as more biplanes in competitive tbd (and ball, too, because no base in ball).

Repair TAs, meet your maker.

edit: Fine, no hard counters. Damage dealt by biplane shots are repaired at half speed or less.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by [y]

i suggest that damage dealt by biplane shots (both primary and secondary) can't be healed by repair drone, forcing the player to run back to the base to heal.

With this, no anchor nerf would be needed, as well as more biplanes in competitive tbd (and ball, too, because no base in ball).

Repair tas, meet your maker.

i already suggested that u herp derp

i got overruled iirc cuz they don't want things that are hard counters to stuff

makes sense

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by elxir

i already suggested that u herp derp

i got overruled iirc cuz they don't want things that are hard counters to stuff

makes sense

Yeah well no one listens to elxir.

So, nou.

[Evan20000]

That would also crap on bombers.

However, making a plane that is designed to crap on a single green perk seems like... shaky design.

[[Y]]

It's not crapping on a perk, just making it take longer to repair biplane shots :<

[Greekjr14]

And that is how you initiate with a biplane. Problem solved.

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by Greekjr14

Quote removed by Mod because suggestion forums.

OH SNA-

<3 mikey

[Wok3N^]

I was just thinking about the summer league finals and how many biplanes were used during that. Since I started playing in late December, what happened to the biplane? It seemed as if it used to be a widely used plane in tbd.

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by Wok3N^

I was just thinking about the summer league finals and how many biplanes were used during that. Since I started playing in late December, what happened to the biplane? It seemed as if it used to be a widely used plane in tbd.

overkill with the nerfbat

[Kuja900]

Just a meta game shift if I remember right. People realized the speed/emp of the loopy > the durability advantage of the bip.

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by elxir

biplane needs a unique weapon that affects things other than then health of the enemy.

buff pierce imo

[Stormich]

The main replacement of the biplane is the loopy since the meta shift. People threw out biplanes with higher health for a faster more maneuvrable plane that has high sniping abilities from mid to long range and great secondary abilities. Biplanes just can't compare with loopies, on one side you get a plane that does have HC as a great long range sniper but it gets completely nullified once a loopy gets just 1 EMP off. The DF/recoiless version I'm not even getting into, its impossible to get into burst range with all the explodets pushing you around, bombers flak slowing you down and loopies EMPING you. Maybe just abandon DF/recoiless as competitive and give HC 100% second pierce or some stopping power like bomber has with flak. It would help a lot with this defensive role and even help cripple TAs since HC is the easiest to hit them with. One shot before they anchor and they lose their speed meaning a possibly stalled TA after the anchor.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Stormich

The main replacement of the biplane is the loopy since the meta shift. People threw out biplanes with higher health for a faster more maneuvrable plane that has high sniping abilities from mid to long range and great secondary abilities. Biplanes just can't compare with loopies, on one side you get a plane that does have HC as a great long range sniper but it gets completely nullified once a loopy gets just 1 EMP off. The DF/recoiless version I'm not even getting into, its impossible to get into burst range with all the explodets pushing you around, bombers flak slowing you down and loopies EMPING you. Maybe just abandon DF/recoiless as competitive and give HC 100% second pierce or some stopping power like bomber has with flak. It would help a lot with this defensive role and even help cripple TAs since HC is the easiest to hit them with. One shot before they anchor and they lose their speed meaning a possibly stalled TA after the anchor.

whoa

solution (for HC at least) acquired

why not make HC stall an enemy like flak cannon?

[Greekjr14]

Originally Posted by elxir

whoa

solution (for HC at least) acquired

why not make HC stall an enemy like flak cannon?

I agree. If it was able to pierce AND stall, that would make it a lot more effective in a group fight.

[elxir]

fwiw i am of the opinion that HC and recoilless are both fine in terms of 1v1 killing ability, they are just lacking any unique AoE that other planes have (minus miranda which has witchcraft so)

[A Nipple]

That sounds nice though I am not too sure about pierce aswell, I mean imagine in the middle of core a HC sniping 2 planes then falling out of the sky and damaged! As long as i understand that correctly. But if it were to stall only the first plane (like flak/partial stall) then only pierce the 2nd that would be cool. I have to admit with all this talk of biplane I hope that theres not some stupidly over the top buff the the point its OP.

For me Kujas idea is amazing with the extra turnability. However if HC is gets these xtra pierce/ possibly flak effect stall. Then I think only recoilless should get the extra turnability.

Lam/karl it would be nice to have some input, especially on the anchor thread its going round in circles atm! plus i'm excited for the next patch whenever it might be ^^

nipnip

[Kuja900]

As it stands now HC only needs a minor buff as its only slightly underpowered, anything radical should only apply to the recoilless and dogfighter.

[A Nipple]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

As it stands now HC only needs a minor buff as its only slightly underpowered, anything radical should only apply to the recoilless and dogfighter.

thats true, I'd suggest the stall idea like flak for HC and increased turn-ability for recoilless, though I'm debating if that should only be when it is carrying the bomb?!

umm in terms of AoE for recoilless. I am thinking along the lines of when you use the D key it causes a slight unsettling to the enemy plane, displacing it making it a little harder to control with the potential of stalling. For me dogfighter feels like a bit of a lost cause and I think its a matter of time before an idea pops up that might help improve it!

Its impossible to get it perfect but i think your doing a darn job of getting it close!

nipniparoo

[hurripilot]

So a few guys have been speculating about how a real Biplane performs. Here are some basic facts about real Biplanes:

- Real Biplanes are significantly slower than mono-planes (planes with one wing). This is because the extra wing that a Biplane carries, as well as the struts that connect it to the lower wing and the fuselage, create more drag (or air resistance) than a single wing aircraft.

- Biplanes are very maneuverable, far more so than mono-planes. This is because Biplanes have two wings to use in keeping the plane aloft. Having two wings reduces the wing loading (or the weight that each wing has to carry), enabling the pilot to perform radical maneuvers without stalling or tearing the wings off. It also means that the span of each wing can be shorter, which aids maneuvering as well

- Biplanes have a very low stall-speed, again because of the increased lift they enjoy from their two wings. They are also easier to recover from a stall than most mono-planes.

- Modern Muscle Biplanes (which is what our Altitude Bipe is based on) are constructed from very light yet durable materials. The fuselage and wing structures are typically made from aviation-grade aluminum and aluminum tubing. The surfaces are typically covered with strong, yet light synthetic fabrics.




EDIT: I feel I should mention that I'm not suggesting these changes be made to our Biplane. I'm just putting this up as a reference.

[Wok3N^]

If you guys are saying that the first HC shot should stall the other plane, that is a bit OP. I might be misinterpreting but oh well. I think it would be fine if all the biplanes had some sort of slowing/pushback ability, like the bomber flak. Maybe even a bit more imo. This way, their great speed can dominate the other planes by slowing them down. Also, the quicker loopies would not be able to dominate the biplanes with speed due to being slowed.