make competitive ball 5v5

tyr · #1 10-15-2010, 09:49 PM

Question : Why is competitive ball played 6v6 ?
Answer : Because when ball first appeared we basically said "hey let's play it 6v6, it'll be fun !" and that's what we did.

After a bit more than a year of existence it's pretty clear to me (and many others) now that ball should not be played 6v6 as it's basically a huge cluster****. The short respawn times make it very difficult to do any kind of superior team strategic play and most of the games are determined by who kills the best. I don't think this should be the case.

If it's played 5v5 however, the spaces could be more easily exploited and not only would it make outstanding solo plays more effective but also would make passes more effective and therefore improve team play. And it would also be more interesting as it'll be less of a huge spamfest.

Please post your thoughts on the subject, and if you prefer 6v6, please give me one good reason to keep ball 6v6.

ryebone · #2 10-15-2010, 10:32 PM

Strongly agree. I believe the reason that we settled on 6v6 was because in the past, we were all too noob to understand the best ways to pass and shoot, utilize walls and bankshots, etc. A lot of games ended up with the ball rolling around at the bottom, with everyone diving down and dying.

Now, I think many players are good enough so that we can begin to highlight real ball skills a little more. 5v5 is a good way to start that.

Evan20000 · #3 10-15-2010, 10:33 PM

+1 to this.

5v5 played fine in the APL2 preseason (Selfpass aside...). I don't know why that was ever changed.

elxir · #4 10-15-2010, 10:45 PM

agree 6v6 ball is too slow now

drunkguava · #5 10-15-2010, 10:48 PM

i'm up for trying this in some scrims. theoretically it makes sense. Cave, especially, feels absolutely terrible 6v6. asteroids isnt great either.

sunshineduck · #6 10-15-2010, 11:46 PM

I'd be against it just based on the fact that when someone leaves a 6v6 ball ladder game the 5v5 game just seems ridiculously fast (with TA being overpowered by a large margin) but there might be some reverse placebo or some psychological mumbo jumbo attributed to it

I'm down to at least try it

elxir · #7 10-15-2010, 11:49 PM

TA isn't overpowered people are just bad

Goose · #8 10-16-2010, 12:11 AM

I strongly disagree, huge spamfests is what makes ball awesome.

Teething · #9 10-16-2010, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goose

I strongly disagree, huge spamfests is what makes ball awesome.

I agree with this

. Why not make two leagues though?
Or just multiple seasons?

Evan20000 · #10 10-16-2010, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elxir

TA isn't overpowered people are just bad

And people would actually have to press F with trick again.

carstairs · #11 10-16-2010, 02:58 AM

I'm fond of 6v6, but I'm willing to test it and see how it goes.

Nikon · #12 10-16-2010, 03:15 AM

I think it is worth a shot, and TA is only OP in 5v5 bladder because you don't have a team that knows how to play together. If it was 5v5 tvo Vs {ball} or arr Vs tvo etc, TA would not be OP.

Evan20000 · #13 10-16-2010, 03:43 AM

Due to the structure of ball maps, TAs get owned by tricksters and HCs. In fact, all runners do.

sunshineduck · #14 10-16-2010, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikon

I think it is worth a shot, and TA is only OP in 5v5 bladder because you don't have a team that knows how to play together. If it was 5v5 tvo Vs {ball} or arr Vs tvo etc, TA would not be OP.

Which is why ladder should be 6v6, ducy?

Don't really want the first bladder page to be nothing but .25 ratio mirandas..

CCN · #15 10-16-2010, 05:15 AM

Doesn't seem people would object to a preseason ball tourney of 5v5 to test this out.

tgleaf · #16 10-16-2010, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCN

Doesn't seem people would object to a preseason ball tourney of 5v5 to test this out.

Agreed. And tyr:

It takes less than two seconds to cross some BALL maps. It takes less time than that to pass from plane to plane across those maps. A biplane or TA running a bomb in a 5v4 situation still requires a push with the team staying together to succeed. A 5v4 situation in BALL is OP because you can spread the team out and run or pass into the open spaces. Even with the quick respawn, a fast offense will take advantage of the small defensive team.

I'm not saying 5v5 can't work... I organized a successful 3v3 tourney and it was a ton of fun. We had to outlaw TAs because it would have been a joke otherwise, but every other plane was able to contribute and the fast pace with highly-skilled players was great. So I'm up for testing your theory.

elxir · #17 10-16-2010, 05:54 AM

push

ball

wat

GGQ · #18 10-16-2010, 03:48 PM

we played 6v6 because miranda self-pass in 5v5 was LOL

i've been suggesting 5v5 since randa self-pass got nerfed

Considered · #19 10-17-2010, 12:21 AM

i'd give 5v5 a shot.

[Y] · #20 10-17-2010, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgleaf

It takes less than two seconds to cross some BALL maps. It takes less time than that to pass from plane to plane across those maps.

wat.

Did you mean from spawn point to goal? If so...

wat.

Mt.Vesuvius · #21 10-17-2010, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Y]

wat.

Did you mean from spawn point to goal? If so...

wat.

U don't know the cross a map in two seconds hack?

wolf'j'max · #22 10-17-2010, 10:58 AM

herp derp +1 to OP

Boko · #23 10-17-2010, 12:45 PM

I have doubts about if it will work or not. Some of the currently played ball games are really intense and that shows that 6v6 works.

Can't hurt to try tho.

mled · #24 10-17-2010, 03:20 PM

disagree

Ball is much more fast paced. you pass the ball making it much faster then a big bomb in TBD. I don't think ball should be 5v5 it will make a huge difference you will see goals will be scored so much faster that it might become stupid because your team cant do anything about it. 6v6 is better for a faster paced passing movement type game. having that extra played to defend and attack makes the difference.

andy · #25 10-17-2010, 04:04 PM

6v6 Doesnt punish errors enough. I would be up to try 5v5.

Radium · #26 10-17-2010, 04:57 PM

4v4 Ball wouldn't be fun. I'm talking about when a player disconnects or whatever. Ball is meant to be fast paced like mled said. A player disconnecting would really slow it down.

elxir · #27 10-17-2010, 05:22 PM

the problem is that ball isn't fast paced anymore

sure you need to rush around a lot to get places

but nothing ****ing happens because whales are so OP in ball

tyr · #28 10-17-2010, 06:32 PM

And how does one more player makes it faster paced ? On the contrary lol

elxir · #29 10-17-2010, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr

And how does one more player makes it faster paced ? On the contrary lol

that's what i'm sayin

Boko · #30 10-17-2010, 10:01 PM

5,5v5,5 would be ideal tbh.

And we should try tbd 6v6 too, I mean we just one day decided let's do tbd 5v5, but wouldn't it be good to try 6v6 too?

tyr · #31 10-17-2010, 10:16 PM

What, you think we didn't try ?

Smushface · #32 10-17-2010, 10:17 PM

Yea, i remember there being a pretty lengthy discussion about the proper TBD team size about 2 years back.

Boko · #33 10-17-2010, 10:21 PM

So 5v5 ball wasn't tested? How lazy.

[Y] · #34 10-17-2010, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boko

So 5v5 ball wasn't tested? How lazy.

Either ball didn't exist, or no one cared about it.

York · #35 10-17-2010, 10:39 PM

ill push for skyleague preseason to be 5v5

not lik i have any say tho

elxir · #36 10-17-2010, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boko

So 5v5 ball wasn't tested? How lazy.

it was always 10v10

those of us who came in the first steam wave (and those prior who bothered with ball) more or less created the 6v6 format...which was a massive reduction from 10v10 which we enjoyed

Sunaku · #37 10-18-2010, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr

please give me one good reason to keep ball 6v6.

Well because, as Boko said, it works quite well as it is now. If offers a good balance between the team effort needed for pushing, the defense cover all over the field and the passing opportunities.
The only (major) drawback I'd see with 5v5 is that if someone drops, 4v4 is horrible. We can of course try, but going from something working to something potentially awful doesn't excite me much.
If you want the TBD recipe to spice up ball, here is a better ingredient : multiball !

Kuja900 · #38 10-18-2010, 01:47 PM

But Tyr! 5v5 ball would actually punish the mistakes of players and would make bad players actually look bad! We cant have that!

tyr · #39 10-18-2010, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuja900

But Tyr! 5v5 ball would actually punish the mistakes of players and would make bad players actually look bad! We cant have that!

didnt look at it that way :/

mled · #40 10-18-2010, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radium

4v4 Ball wouldn't be fun. I'm talking about when a player disconnects or whatever. Ball is meant to be fast paced like mled said. A player disconnecting would really slow it down.

actually tyr radium is right. having less people would make it slower paced. because having 6 people on one side you have more passing options theres more people to rush with you. 5v5 might make it slower when you think about it.

plus i sorta like being in an organized tourney where more people play on one team.