Patch: june 9th, balance adjustments

[Vania]

Bomber was OP, now it's fine.
Miranda is still OP, it's harder to master but it's insane in the hands of a good player.
Biplane is OP? Without heavy canon it sucks against mirandas and explodets because of its short range. I dont know about the heavy canon, I dont use it.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter

I can't even count how many times a biplane WITHOUT the repair perk has taken a full rack of 4 direct bomber grenade hits and still lived. Occasionally this number is 5.

the repair perk doesn't really improve survivability in terms of burst damage dude. don't know why that is relevant to your argument. and yeah a biplane can't take 4 hits of grenades and live. you probably missed, which is why the biplane owned you.

the problem with your argument right now is that biplanes and bombers are pretty much on equal footing in the game, BUT the fact is that biplanes are more often played by much more skilled players, whereas bombers are played mostly by noobs. see a problem with that? go and try playing the biplane and fight against bombers and try raping with it, and you'll see why (or more likely than not, go buy the game first, as you obviously don't have an understanding of what repair does, so you've probably never tried it)

[Peanut Butter]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

the repair perk doesn't really improve survivability in terms of burst damage dude. don't know why that is relevant to your argument. and yeah a biplane can't take 4 hits of grenades and live. you probably missed, which is why the biplane owned you.

the problem with your argument right now is that biplanes and bombers are pretty much on equal footing in the game, BUT the fact is that biplanes are more often played by much more skilled players, whereas bombers are played mostly by noobs. see a problem with that? go and try playing the biplane and fight against bombers and try raping with it, and you'll see why (or more likely than not, go buy the game first, as you obviously don't have an understanding of what repair does, so you've probably never tried it)

I'm not going to pick apart everything you said, because quite frankly if you have to result to insults and baseless assumptions, it's not worth my time.

I have purchased the game, and I have played all planes extensively (Miranda is probably my most used, followed by bomber, then biplane). I was originally drawn to biplane and actually do not play it anymore because I did not find it challenging at all. Part of fun for me is the challenge and the biplane did not offer much. I find Miranda the most fun to play.

And I do know what the repair perk does, but nice baseless assumption once again. You make yourself look quite immature by thinking you know what's going on. However, getting a bead on a biplane and unloading a full set of grenades and missing say, 2 of the 4 shots, due to things beyond your control (like the opponent's horrid ping) allows them to get a good tick or two of health back in the time it takes to line up another shot and have some energy reload.

[Beagle]

The lack of pierce on heavy cannon is really starting to irritate me. I keep going to shoot a bomb-carrier who has passed me or something similar, see the heavy cannon shell sailing towards the target and thinking 'hey I did a good snipe', and then, nope, some ass will come sailing in and it'll hit him instead, as the bomber flies off to destroy my base.

tl;dr I'm not enjoying pierce being removed.

[nesnl]

Originally Posted by Beagle

The lack of pierce on heavy cannon is really starting to irritate me. I keep going to shoot a bomb-carrier who has passed me or something similar, see the heavy cannon shell sailing towards the target and thinking 'hey I did a good snipe', and then, nope, some ass will come sailing in and it'll hit him instead, as the bomber flies off to destroy my base.

tl;dr I'm not enjoying pierce being removed.

I see this as a good thing. I often times use my plane to shield my bomb carrier from taking damage or I sometimes use noobs as bullet shields just so I don't die. It kind of defeats the purpose of being able to shield someone from damage if it just means you are both going to take damage.

I think that the ability to shoot 'through' planes should be unique to the explodet. That is because the explodet doesn't do damage to the planes that it shoots through.

I just don't understand all the fuss about pierce with the heavy cannon. Biplane is already borderline overpowered. It is small and has good speed, turning, and health. It also has the highest possible damage per second of any plane (I am not 100% on this). It's like everyone wants the best of everything on the biplane including the ability to often times double or triple the damage per energy cost just because a few planes are in the way.

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by nesnl

It's like everyone wants the best of everything on the biplane including the ability to often times double or triple the damage per energy cost just because a few planes are in the way.

AFAIK Heavy Cannon's pierce never did full damage on the second or subsequent targets it hit.

[Grif]

Yeah, wasn't it like one third? Infinite geometric series, probably won't even add up to 1.5 times the damage output per shot. With an INFINITE number of targets in line.

[nesnl]

It was originally 4 targets with something like: 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 damage to each. Then it got switched to 3 targets with 2/3, 1/3 to each target. So I guess the maximum in the last patch previous to this one was double damage.

I wasn't trying to imply that it did full damage on subsequent hits, merely showing that it adds up.

[Beagle]

You know what would be an awesome new 'unique' property for the heavy cannon?

Giving it a zoom function

>:3

[gameguard]

3 shots kills biplane i think. You just missed. Also, biplane got nerfed pretty bad.

[Triped]

Originally Posted by nesnl

I see this as a good thing. I often times use my plane to shield my bomb carrier from taking damage or I sometimes use noobs as bullet shields just so I don't die. It kind of defeats the purpose of being able to shield someone from damage if it just means you are both going to take damage.

I think that the ability to shoot 'through' planes should be unique to the explodet. That is because the explodet doesn't do damage to the planes that it shoots through.

I just don't understand all the fuss about pierce with the heavy cannon. Biplane is already borderline overpowered. It is small and has good speed, turning, and health. It also has the highest possible damage per second of any plane (I am not 100% on this). It's like everyone wants the best of everything on the biplane including the ability to often times double or triple the damage per energy cost just because a few planes are in the way.

I agree with all of this, but I liked pierce because it was fun, different and it felt right. That's an important consideration too. I wouldn't mind if pierce did 1/2 and 1/4 damage, or only pierced upon destroying the target, dealing the balance of remaining potential damage to the next target. Whatever weakening it would take to keep it in the game.

If heavy cannon doesn't pierce, it should at least do a little knockback so it feels heavy.

[Blank]

nerf everything.

[protest boy]

Originally Posted by Triped

If heavy cannon doesn't pierce, it should at least do a little knockback so it feels heavy.

Agreed. It needs something. Even a little graphic effect when you hit someone might be enough.

[PBS]

More powerful Miranda? Seems crazy, but I've hated miranda for years. Goal to get a dozen players to dominate all game play now seems complete.

and WTF happened to biplane?

Loopy still needs more, at least double fire.

Bomber seems to be better now.

[Ferret]

Originally Posted by PBS

More powerful Miranda?

Actually a nerf.

[duck]

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter

I'm not going to pick apart everything you said, because quite frankly if you have to result to insults and baseless assumptions, it's not worth my time.

I have purchased the game, and I have played all planes extensively (Miranda is probably my most used, followed by bomber, then biplane). I was originally drawn to biplane and actually do not play it anymore because I did not find it challenging at all. Part of fun for me is the challenge and the biplane did not offer much. I find Miranda the most fun to play.

And I do know what the repair perk does, but nice baseless assumption once again. You make yourself look quite immature by thinking you know what's going on. However, getting a bead on a biplane and unloading a full set of grenades and missing say, 2 of the 4 shots, due to things beyond your control (like the opponent's horrid ping) allows them to get a good tick or two of health back in the time it takes to line up another shot and have some energy reload.

I've played a lot with both the bomber and biplane. Biplane dies from 4 (maybe 3) direct grenade hits. And it takes more than 2 heavy canon shots to kill a bomber. I don't know why you feel that biplane is overpowered.

I think I can get better k/d ratios with the bomber, but I have more control with the biplane, because the bullets fly straight. But it sucks getting chased in a biplane, while the bomber doesn't have that problem because of the wonderful ass canon. Overall I think they're evenly matched

[Ajplagge]

Definately missing pierce ability
I think it is a pretty tough arguement to claim biplane was overpowered, good people just chose to fly it. Personally its my lowest ratio and the plane i flew the most.

(often do bomb runs with it but doubt that affected ratio too much)

[innerlyte]

Although I've been able to put up similar numbers with the heavy cannon since the update, I'm still not sure piercing should have been removed. I understand that it might have been done to remove some of the randomness, but how is that different from splash damage or even a bouncy shot? While splash damage affects all targets in a circular area, the biplane's piercing cannon affected targets along a straight line. Personally, I liked the uniqueness of the heavy cannon. Removing laser piercing made sense, but I can't recall getting an overwhelming number of kills after having pierced 1 or more targets. It was just a nice addition when it did happen. If we could bring it back at the expense of a nerf, I like either of Triped's suggestions.

Also, I agree that more experienced players are good with the biplane, making it seem OP at times. I think this is because newer players don't see immediate results when they first start playing it. I was turned off by the biplane early on, because it stalled a lot and actually required aiming. Now it's one of my favorite planes

[tacos]

i think the biplane needs a slight reduction in armor and balance will be more or less complete in this game. 2 hits with bomber grenade at full health will drop it to a sliver, anything less than full health is killed by two grenades. This would make it a good balance with the bombers damage. It's a bit unfair that two hits from a more maneuverable plane is capable of killing a bomber, while it takes more than 3 hits from a bomber to kill the biplane.

[Blank]

Originally Posted by tacos

i think the biplane needs a slight reduction in armor and balance will be more or less complete in this game. 2 hits with bomber grenade at full health will drop it to a sliver, anything less than full health is killed by two grenades. This would make it a good balance with the bombers damage. It's a bit unfair that two hits from a more maneuverable plane is capable of killing a bomber, while it takes more than 3 hits from a bomber to kill the biplane.

....

Biplane and bomber have the same HP. As far as I can tell, a direct hit with a grenade and a heavy shot deal close to the same damage (3 hits with either weapon will kill a biplane/bomber that isn't using heavy armor... might need 4 at 0 bars).

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Blank

....

Biplane and bomber have the same HP. As far as I can tell, a direct hit with a grenade and a heavy shot deal close to the same damage (3 hits with either weapon will kill a biplane/bomber that isn't using heavy armor... might need 4 at 0 bars).

as of latest patch:
bomber health: 275
biplane health: 250

[tacos]

what about damage? can you confirm that grenade and heavy cannon do the same damage?

[lamster]

Grenades do 86 damage (for 380 energy)
Heavy Cannon does 112 damage (for 630 energy)

Grenades will kill a normal Biplane in 250/86 = 3 hits.
Grenades will kill a heavy armor Biplane in 307/86 = 4 hits.

Heavy Cannon will kill a normal Bomber in 275/112 = 3 hits.
Heavy Cannon will kill a heavy armor Bomber in 336/112 = 3 hits. (might tweak damage down a bit to make this 4, now you see why some patches include 1% damage nerfs)

[protest boy]

Originally Posted by lamster

Grenades do 86 damage (for 380 energy)
Heavy Cannon does 112 damage (for 630 energy)

Grenades will kill a normal Biplane in 250/86 = 3 hits.
Grenades will kill a heavy armor Biplane in 307/86 = 4 hits.

Heavy Cannon will kill a normal Bomber in 275/112 = 3 hits.
Heavy Cannon will kill a heavy armor Bomber in 336/112 = 3 hits. (might tweak damage down a bit to make this 4, now you see why some patches include 1% damage nerfs)

Are you going to put this kind of stuff on the wiki? It's very valuable information when giving feedback on balance.

[lamster]

Yeah I've been meaning to for a while, especially now that balance adjustments have slowed down a bit. I'll put it on my list for next week

[DiogenesDog]

Well, 1% hp or dmg nerfs always made sense for that reason (I even made a post about it!), but wtf is with a 2% range nerf?

[Pillars]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

Well, 1% hp or dmg nerfs always made sense for that reason (I even made a post about it!), but wtf is with a 2% range nerf?

My only thought is that the 2% reduction makes the new range roughly equate to 'length of screen' or some similarly non-arbitrary distance.

[Kuja900]

The bomber nerf while I feel it's harsh is understandable. However I really do not like the biplane nerf. The main reason I started playing bomber/biplane alot more was cause my team fLb's match with V. They meatshielded their bomber carrier with 2-3 explodets and I was flying a loopy at the time. I had no method for getting through all that fat and my team had no answer. This is why I started playing those two planes because they could. Without the biplane pierce effect I believe the meatshield tactic becomes to strong. Sure you rarely see it in unorganized pugs, but against people who are actually working together its ridiculous. The main reason some dont like pierce is that it lets noobs get lucky with random kills. Sure it allows an unfair/lucky kill here and there but its a necessary mechanic imo. Oh and hell the picture for heavy cannon involves a bullet piercing something at least change that lol.

[Blank]

while I'm not against putting bullet piece back in, you can use grenades, explodet missiles/mines, and miranda warp to deal damage to clump enemies... or just hold onto a wall/shield of your own. Shields obviously become a problem but it's not like heavy shot pieced shields anyway.

Really, the most effective tactic against clumps/shield charges is simply not letting a clump GET that close to your base :|... thus the importance of map control.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

The bomber nerf while I feel it's harsh is understandable. However I really do not like the biplane nerf. The main reason I started playing bomber/biplane alot more was cause my team fLb's match with V. They meatshielded their bomber carrier with 2-3 explodets and I was flying a loopy at the time. I had no method for getting through all that fat and my team had no answer. This is why I started playing those two planes because they could. Without the biplane pierce effect I believe the meatshield tactic becomes to strong. Sure you rarely see it in unorganized pugs, but against people who are actually working together its ridiculous. The main reason some dont like pierce is that it lets noobs get lucky with random kills. Sure it allows an unfair/lucky kill here and there but its a necessary mechanic imo. Oh and hell the picture for heavy cannon involves a bullet piercing something at least change that lol.

Originally Posted by Blank

while I'm not against putting bullet piece back in, you can use grenades, explodet missiles/mines, and miranda warp to deal damage to clump enemies... or just hold onto a wall/shield of your own. Shields obviously become a problem but it's not like heavy shot pieced shields anyway.

Really, the most effective tactic against clumps/shield charges is simply not letting a clump GET that close to your base :|... thus the importance of map control.

Grenades are to slow/spread out to be as effective, missles yes but not as damaging (especially with the thermo nerf), mines are avoidable, miranda warp will only get one hit in before being shot down. Pierce is truely unique imo. I think your concept of map control applies a lot to the 15v15 pugs more so than the organized 5v5 im referring to.

[Blimey]

I'm really missng the Biplane's piercing ability. Like Kujabear and Beagle both said, it makes getting through meatsheild explodets impossible when the bomb is hiding behind them. When you pull off a good snipe it's the best feeling of the game (destroying a base not included) but when it's intercepted it's the worst.
Without the normal pierce, FFA is boring in biplane. you can't kill more then one plane at a time, with large recharge time in between. If explodets get to kill more then one plane at once then biplanes should be able too as well.
Oh, and now there's almost no point in playing loopy.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Blimey

I'm really missng the Biplane's piercing ability. Like Kujabear and Beagle both said, it makes getting through meatsheild explodets impossible when the bomb is hiding behind them. When you pull off a good snipe it's the best feeling of the game (destroying a base not included) but when it's intercepted it's the worst.
Without the normal pierce, FFA is boring in biplane. you can't kill more then one plane at a time, with large recharge time in between. If explodets get to kill more then one plane at once then biplanes should be able too as well.
Oh, and now there's almost no point in playing loopy.

That sniping of bomber feeling really does give you chills.

[Blimey]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

That sniping of bomber feeling really does give you chills.

I want my chills back

[Ferret]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

miranda warp will only get one hit in before being shot down.

I believe this applies a lot more to a 30v30 pug than the type of organized game with skilled players of which Blank speaks.

[lamster]

I agree that without -something- extra the heavy cannon feels a bit boring. I was tempted to add knockback to the cannon bullet, but I know most people hate getting knocked around and I don't want to crowd explo's niche.

I'm leaning towards a small nerf (probably 3-7%) on the heavy cannon's initial damage and bringing back pierce (1 pierce only, 2nd target takes 50% damage). Thoughts?

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by lamster

I'm leaning towards a small nerf (probably 3-7%) on the heavy cannon's initial damage and bringing back pierce (1 pierce only, 2nd target takes 50% damage). Thoughts?

I can only see that small damage nerf being annoying if, say, that 3-7% was the tick that then means you need one more shell for each plane. I.e. if it made Loopy 3 shots, it'd be an overall nerf again, pierce or not.

It's a case of the pierce being really useful, but we don't wanna get a harder job in a 1v1 as well

[nesnl]

Just to make a comment of what I think an advantage to the non-pierce is is that you know for sure if you hit your target or not. With pierce there was sometimes a question of whether you landed the shot or not. It would be nice if there was some indication for when you get a hit (small explosion or something) if pierce were to be reinstated. I also think you should make the laser pierce again. The laser is so short now that it seems like adding that back would be a good addition.

[Blank]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

I think your concept of map control applies a lot to the 15v15 pugs more so than the organized 5v5 im referring to.

I think this is why you lose those "organized 5v5"'s you're talking about.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Blank

I think this is why you lose those "organized 5v5"'s you're talking about.

We never lose,

Btw nesl I like the explosion on shot idea with heavy cannon, if i was with you irl id give you a cookie.

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

We never lose