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| General Altitude Discussion Discuss anything Altitude related that doesn't belong in another forum. |
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#1
06-12-2009, 02:17 AM
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How does high ping look like on each side?
From the high pinger's side, I can shoot stuff without compensating for lag. Bullets shoot out the moment I press F and as long as I see it hit a plane, they take damage. Even bouncy shots and mines have this reliability. On the other hand, everyone else's bullets appear late. Loopy missiles appear about three Loopy lengths away from where they actually shoot. And, if they do shoot me in that blind spot of lag, it counts as a hit and I still take damage even if I don't even see the shot.
I'd say that this is a handicap, rather than an advantage, but I have no idea how the game looks like for the guy on the other side of the pacific. 
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#2
06-12-2009, 02:28 AM
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to the "victims" it appears as though you dart around the map in a teleporting-like fashion, and your bullets/other projectiles come out of midair where no planes are present. also, one moment you may be close to the enemy base carrying the bomb and the other moment you have already dropped the bomb and it has already damaged the base, without any warning. don't get any ideas because of what i just said, though.
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#4
06-12-2009, 02:39 AM
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#5
06-12-2009, 02:42 AM
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The difference for you is, everyone is on the same lag time(for you), so you lead everyone the same way. For the victim, everyone BUT YOU is on the same lag time. So its just you that shoots around corners, and the victim can lead and correct for everyone BUT YOU the lagger, because you seem "out of sync" with whats really going on, making it impossible to counter half the time(depends on how bad your ping is). In your case last game, you were 300-400 ms out.. And using a miranda at that.. It was retarded 
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#6
06-12-2009, 03:23 AM
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When going high ping vs. high ping, I seem to get mixed results. 95% of time, it's exactly like playing with someone with low ping. It's the exception, rather than the rule, to see other planes suddenly shift position due to lag (but it does happen). For you guys, does every single high pinger teleport around?
From experiences with other games, I'd wager that the lag teleporting happens because of high packetloss, rather than high ping. High packetloss often comes with high ping, but not the other way around.
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#7
06-12-2009, 04:15 AM
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Lag does, however, mean there is a slight desync in the positioning of planes relative to each other. For example, if my connection with you is around 200~300, your actions may seem delayed to me, and mine to you; for example, you could have turned around a corner and on my screen it will seem as if you are just beginning the turn. To understand why you're dying around corners, you need to understand that the hit detection in this game is client-side. That means that whether or not the projectile hits you on YOUR screen is irrelevant: if it hits on the screen of the firer, that is registered as a hit. This is why it is hard to block the bomb with high ping, because it is a projectile from an opponent, and thus to block it you must intercept it on their screen, regardless of it 'passing through you' on yours. That means that any argument of lag making it hard to 'lead the target' is fundamentally flawed. 'Teleporting planes' is a legitimate complaint, but delay caused by lag does not make it any harder to hit anyone. You may say "It's not fair, I got around that corner before the bullet hit me, so I should be safe". From my perspective, you got hit by the bullet before you got around the rock - the information just hadn't been transmitted to you yet, so you thought you were safe. Things that moderate lag may legitimately result in: - Inteference with your attempts to dodge high speed projectiles like you're Neo in an airplane. - Paranoia about whether you're still alive or not after narrowly escaping from someone around a corner. - Phantom Bomb syndrome ("It passed right through me!") - Ghost plane revenge, when a killed plane is yet to recieve news of its death and continues moving and firing for a little while, even though it is clearly grayed out and dead (the higher the ping, the longer the ghost period). It's also worth noting that many of these issues are also in effect for the high pinger, not just the low pinger. When I play on the official servers with a ping of around 250, I will be killed after 'escaping', blocking bombs is tricky, and trying to dodge anything but mines is an exercise in futility (though it's not much easier with a low ping, of course). Note also that though you may dread seeing a high pinging plane because their actions are a second or a half delayed, it's like that with EVERY plane for him or her. I apologize if I seem blase when someone complains to me about issues like these in the heat of the game, but because I am under the effects of lag in dogfights with almost every plane, I understand their effects clearly and I don't see them as being very significant issues. Whereas, someone with a generally good ping would have less experience with these effects and be more easily irritated by them because they think it makes me harder to hit or they're being robbed of their escapes. The former complaint is outright false and the latter rarely makes a big difference; usually the only difference is you just didn't know you were dead yet. This post ended up huge but I think there's a lot of misconceptions about ping and the difference between the issue of 'teleporting planes' and 'delay', and I wanted to help clear those up with my experiences in Altitude as a player who generally sports a high ping to most servers. I'd also note that if you still can't deal with a minor delay in the communication of gameplay information, it is very easy to set up your own server where you can kick whoever you like
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#8
06-12-2009, 08:30 AM
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As someone that's played a lot of games on both sides of this, I just want to say that it's much worse BEING the high pinger. You end up losing close dogfights and die a lot more when you're trying to slip through to bomb a base. Once you actually let go of the bomb it's a big advantage because they can't catch it as easily, but the other combined disadvantages are much much worse.
and on top of that you have to hear constant bitching about how your high ping is a huge advantage. 
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#9
06-12-2009, 11:57 AM
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#10
06-12-2009, 03:21 PM
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Having high ping is probably a disadvantage up to a point maybe up to 150-200 or so, you get above 250, and things go completely out the window on on the low pingers side. To us, its like your in a completely different game. And the advantages null the disadvantages. You get some completely screwy play, where you just explode from something that wasnt there. Theres a reason you never see these types of lags in other "competitive" games. 250ms would simply not be allowed, on a quake or CS, or name that game server.. for beagle "You may say It's not fair, I got around that corner before the bullet hit me, so I should be safe". From my perspective, you got hit by the bullet before you got around the rock - the information just hadn't been transmitted to you yet, so you thought you were safe." This is where you just "dont get" the issue, which we discussed the other night. This is an ADVANTAGE for you.. "from your perspective".. Well your perspective is wrong my friend. Its 300ms behind me, and the entire game everyone else "but you" were playing in.. This idea of, i hit you, you just didnt know it yet. Is wrong, and only exists in once place(on your computer) which IS behind and out of sync with what is really going on. Everyone is in one place, only you see them in another. I WAS around that corner, I was safe, to me, and to everyone else, it was only you that hadn't gotten that information yet, as a result of your 250+ lag. Your lag was the ONLY thing that made that shot possible, There is no, you got hit before you got around the rock. The person IS around the rock, its only your lag, that dosnt show it. Not one other person saw it any other way(I was around the corner) or could have killed me with a shot fired to where i was NOT, I just wasnt there. The 250ms+ lag, lets you hit people where they are not... Altitude is a pretty fast paced game, a whole lot can happen in a quarter of a second, or worse.
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#11
06-12-2009, 06:23 PM
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Yeah, I've never pinged above ~170ms, and that's me being in Germany and the server being in New Mexico. Anyone above that must be in ****ing Antarctica or d/ling porn or something.
But yeah, the ping cap should probably be lowered on official servers now that there are plenty of servers around the world for people playing from crazy countries. Oh, and as to your thing about Beagle, here's the part that I think you're missing: yes, his view is behind yours, but it's moving at the same speed, so he has to react just as fast as he would normally. So it's not really an advantage even if it is frustrating to escape someone and then spontaneously explode.
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#13
06-12-2009, 06:57 PM
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#14
06-12-2009, 07:14 PM
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* I second the motion to reduce the 400 max ping on the official servers.
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#16
06-13-2009, 05:12 AM
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Why this doesn't make me God: - It works like this for me too, from everyone other plane when I'm high ping on a server. Why I don't think it's a big issue: - If you're sitting in a combat zone on low health and get mad when you die because you are relying on your split second reflexes to dodge HIGH SPEED PROJECTILES, you're asking for it, high ping or low ping. Quote:
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 Second of all, again, it's hard for you to understand because you haven't been on the high pingers side: these shots are not missing. If lag meant that my bullets were randomly hitting you for no reason, you'd have a point. But I still am required to have good aim to make these shots. And while your defense appears to center around 'he's in a complete different game world to us' that is not true at all - I am in the same game world, just half a second or so earlier. You do not have 'zero defense' against me. It is interesting you say you cannot 'predict' my shells to evade them, because that is exactly what you CAN do - start evading me a split second earlier, looping around me at close range so I can't get a bead on you or whatever you think works. I won't magically hit you. I'll be struggling to get the shot. Keep in mind that if you're the one entering an area where I'm already located, you will be the one with the half second advantage as I don't know you're there yet. Delay is not arcane, it is quite easy to understand. Oh, and I know why you singled me out for it... Everybody loves a scapegoat.  Quote:
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Welp, it works like that for the high pinger too. So I guess, by YOUR own reasoning, there is no advantage for the high pinger.  I'm going to put this in bold so you hopefully read it this time: The effect where you are hit by bullets that you seemingly avoided a split second ago, caused by delay - that happens to the high pinger from EVERY OTHER PLANE. Anyway, all a lot of your argument seems to be centered around not being able to dodge my bullets. Maybe you could upload a video for us of you in a typical round with no high pingers, going matrix-style on all the enemy shells in your Bomber? You know, just playing the game as you would if us damn foreigners weren't in the way... Oh yeah, and.. Quote:
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#18
06-13-2009, 08:05 AM
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 There it is. Thats what 300ms looks like in altitude. Specifically, the bomber rounding the bottom corner, and flying under an obstacle, at 0ms position, and position exactly 300ms later. You seem to think, probably because you just dont know any better, that 300 ping isnt that big a deal. You believe, im relying on "split second" reflexes to dodge heavy canon shots. This is not the case. I saw you coming, and flat out moved out of the way. The picture above shows the last theoretical place you "could" have had a hit, and the position I WAS at, when you finally fired. And that is where i was when i exploded, from your shot that tracked the red line.. Thats right, you shot right down the read line, while i was already at the 300ms position, and i exploded there.. Take your thumb, and cover the 0ms position it it helps you. I was in ZERO danger. Your shot missed by that much(as seen in the picture), yet i still died to it. No one on that server "except you" could make that shot. Let me write it in bold again so you actually read it.. If ANYONE else takes that shot, they miss.. but YOUR LAG, scored a kill. Thats right, like it or not, your projectile isnt what killed me, it missed by a mile, your lag did. The reason you were singled out, and not just by me i might add, is because you were the only one doing things like that.. And the reason it appears as an advantage is because that same evasive action would and more importantly SHOULD work on anyone, except you... YOU are the odd one out here.. This issue, lies with you, and no one else! And as you can imagine when someone misses you by that much, and still kills you, we have a problem. Hence the entire thread here, and why everyone "except you" agrees that massive pings are a problem, and screw gameplay up.. If you do not understand why this(your issue) would irk people, i cannot help you.. keep patting yourself on the back,and hoping onto servers and phantom killing people for a job well done. Whatever works for you. Regards.
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#19
06-13-2009, 08:30 AM
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You're starting to sound really aggravated, I'm sorry I'm 'irking' you.
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Anyway, seeing as you don't like when I write walls of text, I'll make this one short. I wasn't trying to prove that lag isn't a problem, the priority was more to prove that lag is not an advantage for the lagger. Your pic welcomely demonstrates what I've been expounding upon since my first post. I'm sorry, it is most likely because I deal with it every time I play, but yes - I don't see that split second 300ms movement difference as a huge deal. It's an issue, yes, but I find it easy enough to ignore. I guess that's why we can't see eye to eye on this. However, at the least, agree with me that if it you think it is a huge deal, you must concede that its obviously a huge deal for both players, depending on who is firing at who. I, from the beginning, understand why it would irk you to be killed when you've narrowly escaped - you should be rewarded for your quick thinking. I know it all too well because it happens to me every time I play. But, until there are better servers to play on, I will choose the lowest ping one available - I'm sorry. I will willingly admit I am not so selfless as to stop playing Altitude just to ease the 'irks' of a few people who can't deal with issues in a game. I love this game and will continue playing it. From the tone of the last reply this is fast getting into an ugly back-and-forth bitching session, so lets try and keep it civil 
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#20
06-13-2009, 09:14 AM
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Hey Beagle, where are you playing from? I'm pretty surprised you can't find a server with better than 300ms. So far I know about servers in:
Chicago, England, Korea, Australia You should be able to get 150ms or less from almost anywhere.
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#21
06-13-2009, 09:56 AM
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I will agree, though, that high ping does make the game "shallower" to some extent because it decreases the role of reflexes which we count as a component of skill. But, note that there are other elements of skill which determine who wins in an engagement. The lack of reflexes only really matters if the players are at a high enough skill level and if they are of roughly equal ability at other elements. TLDR version: High ping is fair for both sides. But, it makes the game shallower. While this is bad for competative play, how the amount of depth lost is debatable. I also agree to setting the ping limit to 400 on the official servers. But, make sure one of them has no ping limit, so that people who can live with the lack of reflex actions have a place to play in. OH WAIT, THIS IS ALREADY THE CASE.
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#22
06-13-2009, 09:59 AM
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It's actually pretty interesting that altitude servers have a max ping of 400. It's a pretty fast paced game and 400ms makes a big difference.
Usually in fps games we allow 250ms max on servers. I guess there weren't that many people playing before so the threshold had to be set higher so everyone can join but I think now with euro servers it shouldn't be a problem to lower the max ping. I get an average ping of 40ms on the offical server, 85ms on the euro server (I guess it's in the UK?) and 130ms on the swedish servers. Really if you have more than 200 ping there's certainly a better server out there for you or your connection is just terrible.
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#23
06-13-2009, 01:24 PM
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That is why we play on official servers sometimes, hence the 250 ping.
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#24
06-13-2009, 07:15 PM
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I usually have bad ping when I'm using a neighbor's wireless. I don't notice anything when browsing/downloading, but I get 150-300 playing Altitude running nothing else in the background. That's enough to make the game pretty unplayable so I don't mind a lower ping cap on the official servers.
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#25
06-17-2009, 04:31 AM
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Does anyone else have problems with lag spikes? My connection is kinda flakey (stupid cable company issues) so I tend to go from 30 to 200.
The weirdest part is that after a spike everything starts to move REALLY fast (think afterburner x2 [that's the normal speed]) Is this a common occurrence?
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#26
06-17-2009, 05:34 PM
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Honestly, the best players in the game congregate around the official servers. I used to live 2 hours from Chicago, so I was all about "the high pingers can screw off and find servers in their area" philosophy, but now that I'm studying in Germany I can see why they wouldn't want to.
Basically, you can't get mad at players who have been around from the beginning of the game for wanting to play on the official servers with the people that they've played with for a year or more. Area segregation sounds a little archaic. In a typical game of Altitude, one death is not worth crying over. Not only that, I've been kicked nearly a dozen times now for "he's too good" or "is a *insert nastiest word kicker can spell*" in regional servers, and the only places where you can reliable expect for that not to happen are the official servers because the are, again, populated by people who have been playing for awhile and most likely know who you are and have respect. The basic fact is that high ping is annoying, both to the pinger and the people around him/her. To try and argue about who gets ****ed more is stupid, because everyone loses, end fight. Split second shots can be made by either party, and if you feel like you've been cheated, you probably made the pinger feel cheated too at some point, and he/she just didn't say anything because they accept the fact that there was nothing they could do. Besides, Beagle is good as hell, I'm sure he dished out far more entirely deserved kills that game that undeserved ones.
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#27
06-17-2009, 07:18 PM
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I agree that we shouldn't separate the community based on where they live. But when you've got a server full of people happily playing, and 1 person shows up, and introduces a "BS Dynamic" to the game.. It effects everyone else, through no fault of their own. "Besides, Beagle is good as hell, I'm sure he dished out far more entirely deserved kills that game that undeserved ones." Fair enough, but how many of those kills are the result of his opponents(everyone on the server) taking absolutely no evasive action against him, because they think they are completely out of danger..
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#28
06-18-2009, 12:49 AM
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honestly, the ping from germany isn't gamebreaking. the main effect for me is that I sometimes lose dogfights that I should win and I very occasionally get a bomb drop off that should have been blocked. that's about it.
I can't quite remmeber where I was going with this, but I've had a couple drinks so I'm sure whatever I've posted is pretty QUADASTERISKing profound. but seriously, the people on the european servers are pathetic. I don't really care about the deep personal connections I've formed on the US servers, I just want a good game and you absolutely need to go on the US severs to get that. until the game matures a little and the european community improves a bit, the few good euro players (jeppew, gameguard, probably a few others) will keep slipping over to the US servers and our stupid pings will continue to annoy people.
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#29
06-18-2009, 05:28 AM
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Cheers to Shyney for that bomb explanation + picture. Now I know why I always dominate with 1500 ping when playing on my schools crappy internet. I was always under the impression that ping only hurt the one with bad ping. You've crushed my spirits now that I know I can't attribute my 20:1 at school kill ratios to skillz. Go to hell.
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#30
06-18-2009, 09:00 AM
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Even if you're in Europe you shouldn't get over 200-250 ping on the official servers.
I'd just like to eliminate the more extreme laggers that ruin the flow of the game. Would love to see an official tbd server with 200-250 ping max and no more than 12 players so you can really get some good competitive games in.
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#32
06-18-2009, 06:53 PM
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#33
10-03-2009, 04:49 PM
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Well a suggestion to cure the lagging problem would be to open a server in Australia - we're getting quite a few players who are joining the servers that are overseas and its ending up with a lot of games with pings that vary from 30-500...
I'm normally ~250ms but when you get players who have bad connections, their ping may be substantially low in internet terms (~150ms for along distance connection) their main problem IS packet loss. Just for the benefit of everyone's understanding, Australia does have a pretty terrible Internet setup - no common National line at all and that's still a few billion dollars and probably another 10 years away the way the politicians are debating about it. That results in everyone using different, incompatible service providers here in Aussieland which really is quite a shame...The standard in Europe and America (from my understanding) is ADSL2+ now, isn't it? Because Australia's standard is ADSL only, and therefore the connections are very liable to slacken off due to much lesser bandwidth per internet user in an exchange area. Yet again I am Mr. Technoligically useless at this kind of thing but I'm always here to suggest stuff =D
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#34
10-03-2009, 06:22 PM
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I have a unique position in this debate.
My Ping is usually fine, but every now and then, my connection "spikes". (People who've played with me can attest to this) Anyway, while sometimes the lag screws me, and sometimes it helps me, it still creates an unpredictable element. Overall, it provides more of a disadvantage then advantage. I know I lag, and I try to have the decency not to abuse lagbombing if it's particularly bad that day.
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#35
10-04-2009, 01:47 AM
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1. The amount of oceanic players is too low for the Australian server to have a regularly high enough amount of players to be enjoyable 2. I've already made friends with people on the official servers, so I'd want to play with them. Australian servers are great for us for games with decent playerbases, but the number of regular Alty players is tiny. I'm fairly certain that the only 'cure' to the ping issue for now is grin and bear it. Also, good work Vogez on the  GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVEDIGGERRR Last edited by Beagle; 10-04-2009 at 01:50 AM. Reason: GRAAAAAAVEDIGGER
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#36
10-04-2009, 02:58 AM
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what a champion!
gravedigger kicks butt - i used to play monster truck madness all the time! lol um well I guess australia proportionally doesn't have a huge alty population but the officials are alright... just a bummer bout bringing the average down on tourneys so scratch the idea of new servers
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#38
10-06-2009, 08:40 PM
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I know this is kinda off topic, but it really did make the game more fun for me, and now I don't have to worry about lag bombing.
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