Why should I keep playing recoilless?

[mssv]

Like one week ago, while playing a ladder match, Kuja ordered me to play Loopy, I thought myself: "Why? it's the same "function or playstyle" as recoilless plus I don't master it at all" after trying Loopy for a couple of rounds I kept my Flexi-Turbo-Recoilless setup because I was not used to Loopy.

Since now I've been playing alti in pubs just for fun, and playing recoilless it's indeed fun for me and that's what keeps me playing, I found it challenging, quick, and get a similar satisfaction than in other games like quake or cpl painkiller.

However now I'll be trying competitive alti, since I'm only playing recoilless and I'm always looking to improve and willing to bring more to the clan, I've been testing different planes. I had what Kuja told me around my mind so I've been testing loopy lately. Flexi-Turbo-Double Fire is very fun to play, I like it, very fast, very annoying, very softy. Then, I tried Double Fire-Heavy Armor-Turbo Charger and... It's way so superior to flexi-recoilless in so many ways that I wonder why should I keep playing recoilless apart from the fun it brings to me if I want to bring my best to the clan?

It's about the same resistant, it's faster, it's about the same damage, I can just spam from distance, I can emp a whole group of enemy, I can emp the bomb carrier, I don't need to aim, and the list goes on.
I wouldn't be writing this if I hadn't a problem with it, the problem is that I don't see the fun in such abuse, minutes ago I was killing 3 gold bars planes with ease (no bars myself) and that considering I don't master it at all. The same output with recoilless would have need of some planing, good timing and aim since the players were not bad.

So, I would like to hear from the Community about that matter since I have no experience at competitive alti and maybe you guys prove my thoughts wrong with something I'm missing or just confirming that.


Cheers,
mssv

[number 3]

The #1 rule in alty play what u feel like is fun. And also never listen to kuja.

[York]

Kuja obviously thought you were doing awful and wanted you to play the easiest plane in the game.

[DMCM]

Most competitive teams don't play with recoiless in their setups, unless it's a bomb runner, but then again, if you have fun you should play it. Great teams in the past relied on recoiless players (ACE and L* for example) and they were successful.

[Ribilla]

You argument seems compelling until you actually look at the reasons you've provided and realise some of them are just wrong. Recoilless has the highest DPS in the game (well the other variants on Bip are higher, but they are all similar). DF loopy doesn't need mastering because it is incredibly easy to learn and do okay with, much like bomber. You don't need a high skill level to succeed in pubs. Fight with someone who is 'pro' at Bip and tell me it isn't amazing at dogfighting.

Biplane is the hardest to succeed with at a high level, chances are you just aren't/weren't good enough yet. I personally find loopies a lot easier to kill than Bips, although loopies do often get what I term 'BS' kills on me by flying slowly and spamming off screen till something dies.

I do, however, agree recoilless and Dogfighter need a small buff.

[DMCM]

Biplane has been buffed like 5 times since I started playing and we always reach the conclusion that everything it does, there are other planes doing better.

It's great at doding/falnking/manuvering but randa is better

It's great at close range combat but decent whales and randas still beat them. In most 1 on 1 situations you end up seeing both dead.

It's good at spamming from distance, loopy is still better


Not to mention other planes have the ability to disrupt the control of your plane, making them much more useful in both offense and defence.

[Karl]

I think it's still overlooked that biplanes secondary weapon pierces.

SHORT_RANGE_DAMAGE_RECOILLESS = 26;
SHORT_RANGE_AMMO_RECOILLESS = 117;
SHORT_RANGE_PIERCE_DAMAGE_FRACTIONS_RECOILLESS = new float[] { 0.70f, 0.40f };

First target gets hit for 26, sencond for 18 and third for 10.

54 damage for 117 energy is super high.

For comparison:
TRACKING_MISSILE_AMMO = 307;
TRACKING_MISSILE_DAMAGE = 39;

doubleFireAmmo = 370
doubleFireDmg = 58 // If both missiles hit


Even without piercing Biplane is more efficient than loopy. When you add pierce it is a death machine.

[Karl]

And for further comparison:

Biplane:
LONG_RANGE_DAMAGE = 39;
LONG_RANGE_AMMO = 260;

So 0.15 damge/ammo for biplane long range and loopy double fire is 0.157 damage/ammo.

[mssv]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

You argument seems compelling until you actually look at the reasons you've provided and realise some of them are just wrong. Recoilless has the highest DPS in the game (well the other variants on Bip are higher, but they are all similar).

Yes well... higher DPS I know but only at close range... what about at mid or far range? Could you say the same? I can hit all my Loopy missiles to a plane at the border of my screen, so there, who got higher dps? Can you do the same with biplane?

[Mt.Vesuvius]

Well, maybe rib cannot, but a seasoned biplane...

[hurripilot]

Biplane rocks. Kuja, DMCM and some others will tell you it doesn't, but they're full of it and quite frankly they need to go away.

[/RANT]

[DMCM]

Hey!

I told him to keep playing Biplane

[Stormich]

Originally Posted by Karl

I think it's still overlooked that biplanes secondary weapon pierces.

SHORT_RANGE_DAMAGE_RECOILLESS = 26;
SHORT_RANGE_AMMO_RECOILLESS = 117;
SHORT_RANGE_PIERCE_DAMAGE_FRACTIONS_RECOILLESS = new float[] { 0.70f, 0.40f };

First target gets hit for 26, sencond for 18 and third for 10.

54 damage for 117 energy is super high.

For comparison:
TRACKING_MISSILE_AMMO = 307;
TRACKING_MISSILE_DAMAGE = 39;

doubleFireAmmo = 370
doubleFireDmg = 58 // If both missiles hit


Even without piercing Biplane is more efficient than loopy. When you add pierce it is a death machine.

For pierce to be effective you need 2 planes overlapping each other which doesnt happen often and if it does chances are you're not gonna make it to point blank, loopy will emp you before, explo and bomber will stall you and randa will run away.

Really it's the "special abilities" that make a plane good, and biplane has no useful ones (except HC pierce to a degree). Also EMP tears biplanes to shreds, just ask Monxy lol

[elxir]

*general statement not solely applicable to OP as I do not know the OPs skill*

If you can play defense effectively, and know how to clear and pass, you can use any plane you want.

Good players only get annoyed when you cannot do these basic things, join the best server in the game anyways, and then proceed to use a plane that is too difficult for you, thus making you worse than you already are.

If paragraph (1) applies to you, feel free to go about your business. Otherwise, maybe ask yourself why you insist on making the game harder on your team than it needs to be.

[Greekjr14]

Originally Posted by Stormich

For pierce to be effective you need 2 planes overlapping each other which doesnt happen often and if it does chances are you're not gonna make it to point blank, loopy will emp you before, explo and bomber will stall you and randa will run away.

Really it's the "special abilities" that make a plane good, and biplane has no useful ones (except HC pierce to a degree). Also EMP tears biplanes to shreds, just ask Monxy lol

THIS. I have always said that what makes biplane useless in competitive plane is that it has no special abilites. And no just because it does good damage doesnt make it a special ability.

[Boko]

Recoilless is slightly UP. The risk of getting close and killing 1 person and trying to get out (avoiding the other teammates) is too big. It's way safer to emp and spam tracking missiles from a distance.

Play whale, whale is op. Oh god I did it again.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by Boko

Recoilless is slightly UP. The risk of getting close and killing 1 person and trying to get out (avoiding the other teammates) is too big. It's way safer to emp and spam tracking missiles from a distance.

Play whale, whale is op. Oh god I did it again.

New challenge, I want this in every post. I will be checking on your profile.

[Evan20000]

Remember kids if a plane you don't like isn't getting nerfed, you just aren't crying hard enough.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

Remember kids if a plane you don't like isn't getting nerfed, you just aren't crying hard enough.

Cite example: Boko.

[tyr]

You have to take in account the different roles different planes have.

In my opinion you can put them in 3 general categories. It's very general and a lot of people probably won't agree with me.

Bomb carriers :
TA, all loopies (HA or flex as UFO proved), recoilless

heavy hitters
other mirandas, bombers, HC

support and map control
explodets, loopies, bombers

Looking at the recoilless, because its the current topic, you notice that it's only in bomb carriers. Yes, it does hit pretty damn hard (highest dps ingame after HC) but because of the very short range and the current metagame involving a lot of explodets, it is in fact very hard to exploit recoilless to the best as a pure killer. It is a very effective bomb carrier though, with by far the most health of those I listed and a very good speed as well. But as everyone seems to prefer TA because nobody knows how to play this game, a recoilless bomb carrier is not what teams prefer, even though it is in my opinion, on paper, the most effective, and by far.

tl;dr : because people are terrible at this game and dont know how to kill TAs, it indirectly affects the popularity of recoilless

[Beagle]

Play for fun, play the plane you want to not what your team is screaming at you to play, **** the haters, and never listen to Kuja

[Echo Mirage]

Mann Co. recommends acid loopy > all bips.

I really heard this.

[number 3]

Originally Posted by Beagle

Play for fun, play the plane you want to not what your team is screaming at you to play, **** the haters, and never listen to Kuja

im glad someone thinks the way i do also

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Beagle

Play for fun, play the plane you want to not what your team is screaming at you to play, **** the haters, and never listen to Kuja

boom goes the dynamite!

[Evan20000]

You shouldn't be proud of that ratio. Step it up, son.

[elxir]

No excuses, I sucked.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Beagle

Play for fun, play the plane you want to not what your team is screaming at you to play, **** the haters, and never listen to Kuja

Playing for fun is all fine and dandy, you wont ever hear me yelling at people to switch planes in a pub game. But the point of playing ladder is to play competitively and if you want to be competitive your team needs to have an effective plane composition.

[Mandrad]

mssv is a super killer. Maybe the best active recoiless in the game. If Monxy returned to alti, would his team keep him from playing his plane?

[mled]

Tho they are similar in play style these two differ in massive ways.
-how to approach enemies
-what to fire 1st (alot of mistakes with noob loopy players i notice)

mssv if you would like i could show you some tricks with loopy since i have been doing so well with it lately.

[classicallad]

Hey MSSV, stick with the recoil man, your great at it, and with some bomb running training you'll be unstoppable

[mssv]

Thank for all your replys guys, there's some good points in it :-)

I'll stick with reco and see what happens, I could always switch to loopy for a couple of rounds if situation claims it.


P.S. Wow compared to other games that's a very nice Community here!

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

Playing for fun is all fine and dandy, you wont ever hear me yelling at people to switch planes in a pub game. But the point of playing ladder is to play competitively and if you want to be competitive your team needs to have an effective plane composition.

charschars

[matattack]

as important as i see plane composition there is also the fact that not all players can play up to their current ranking with all planes..in other words people dont let me play any other plane, given the plane composition because of the fact that my skill in other planes cannot match my explodet. in many occasions i see people switch to a different plane for the sake of composition and lose when they really could have played their best plane and been much more beneficial to the team.
if anything, telling people to switch planes in the middle of a match does not do any good to a team. especially if it comes down to "you suck" or "because you are bad". no one has the right honestly to tell others to play other planes because they themselves also cannot carry the team.
i.m.o.

[sunshineduck]

there's a limit to how far you can stretch plane comp though. i'm currently hovering at like 2200 rating and obviously cannot match anywhere close to that in my explo, but if i have balln, shmo, ingbo, and lemon, do i really have a choice?

[number 3]

i like the way matt put a spin on the topic. well done sir

[Boko]

Originally Posted by matattack

as important as i see plane composition there is also the fact that not all players can play up to their current ranking with all planes..in other words people dont let me play any other plane, given the plane composition because of the fact that my skill in other planes cannot match my explodet. in many occasions i see people switch to a different plane for the sake of composition and lose when they really could have played their best plane and been much more beneficial to the team.
if anything, telling people to switch planes in the middle of a match does not do any good to a team. especially if it comes down to "you suck" or "because you are bad". no one has the right honestly to tell others to play other planes because they themselves also cannot carry the team.
i.m.o.

You can tell people to play other planes if they're sucking with another. This is because loopy for example is easier to play than recoilless or trickster/TA. I agree with Kuja and you need to use capitals en punctuation because your post is just one big mother****ing wall of text.

Tip: caps are made with the Shift key or Caps Lock.

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by Boko

You can tell people to play other planes if they're sucking with another. This is because loopy for example is easier to play than recoilless or trickster/TA. I agree with Kuja, and you need to use capitals and punctuation, because your post is just one big mother****ing wall of text.

Tip: Caps are made with the Shift key or Caps Lock.

i assume you're only whining about mata's formatting because you have a serious condition where you can't read internet posts that don't employ perfect capitals and punctuation, which i assume is why you didn't read your own post. i fixed it so you can enjoy being a petty hypocrite

Tip: your face is a butt


also i agree with mata if you can't tell

[classicallad]

Beagle, you forgot the part about talking like a 12 yo.......

and where's the pic to boot?

And hi =)

[Pieface]

I'd rather have a competent recoilless or HC on my team than have them play a plane they're godawful at any day. Sure, it can be helpful to pick up a variety of planes (I'm a living testament to how not doing so is bad), but you shouldn't switch just for the sake of plane composition. Only switch planes if you actually feel you can contribute more to your team with a different setup than you are currently doing.

[Boko]

I'm gonna ignore the elitists (who are making useless posts, this is not the watercooler you know) who are trying to be punctuation/capitilization nazi's. Furthermore I'm not a grammer/punctuation/w.e nazi either, but I don't like reading walls of text without a single capital letter. Its just hard on the eyes.

Tip: Beagle you totally suck at correcting me. The "en" is dutch and was a typo, and has nothing to do with punctuation or capitilization and I shouldn't have used a capital letter after my colon! --> http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp rule 16!
HAHAHAHAHA YOU'RE AMERICAN AREN'T YOU? LOL...!!!!!.!!
Ok ontopic naw!
I think certain planes are easier to play (loopy and whale) and if someone isn't really making themselves useful they should swap roles. Sometimes you feel your not contributing much to the team and that's the time you swap. For all I know Kuja just noticed this and made a suggestion which could make them win the game.

But the topic was originally about if recoilless is more useful than DF loopy. I think the DF loopy is very strong and certainly a plane worth learning (yes it has a learning curve in the EMP department) but recoilless can also be very useful in teamsetups. If you've got the players to cover your back you can wreak havoc.