Feedback on proposed widescreen view change

[lamster]

We are considering changing the official "gameplay" viewable area for Altitude from 1024x768 to 1280x800.

The current "Official #1" server is currently using camera view scale = 120% (1229x921) to provide a testing ground similar to the proposed change. Please try it out and let us know what you think.

Veterans have long requested a larger playing field to reduce randomness and increase interactivity. The earlier a player can identify incoming enemies and projectiles, the longer they have to react and apply countermeasures. An expanded field of view generally discourages minimally interactive exploitation of view limitations (e.g. spamming grenades at a commonly traveled choke point) and encourages tactical, cerebral dogfighting (e.g. I'll send my rocket towards the gap that Loopy is approaching; I'll assume he will react by turning so I'll move to cut off the other path with mines; meanwhile the Loopy sees the rocket incoming and similarly analyzes potential actions based on extensive visible info).

New players, for essentially similar reasons, have also requested this change.

The proposed resolution change would move Altitude to a widescreen resolution (16:10) to better fit the majority of new displays. Players with older graphics cards and non-widescreen monitors would still be able to enjoy Altitude; the change would simply add black bars to the top and bottom for 4:3/5:4 monitors, just as widescreen displays currently show blacks bars on the left and right.

Edit:
After collecting feedback we will not be proceeding with a change to the field of view. The risk of fracturing the community during the adjustment period (which would involve significant balance changes) and losing players who prefer the faster pace dictated by the current view scale is too great. As always, users are free to set up their own servers with custom camera view scales.

[nobodyhome]

Sweet. Are the graphical glitches that were present in some setups when using non-standard plane/viewscales fixed?

[lamster]

This change would not introduce graphical artifacts (like those produced by testCameraViewScale) -- this would strictly increase the visible gameplay area with minimal graphical implications (depending on your monitor's native resolution there may be slight changes, but for most users these would be unnoticeable or a slight improvement).

[Pieface]

Sounds great, but wasn't the game balanced around the current view? Would you be open to balance patches if you go ahead with this?

[lamster]

Originally Posted by Pieface

Sounds great, but wasn't the game balanced around the current view? Would you be open to balance patches if you go ahead with this?

Yes, this change would carry balance repercussions. Some of the implications for plane/perk balance are potentially offsetting, but we would be watching carefully and very open to adjusting balance in light of the expanded field of view.

[mled]

I strongly believe this will not help altitude. Here are the points i have to back my opinion up.

-To easy to Time Anchors to dodge now will make them ever stronger.
-Whales will have more problems killing (especially in certain maps).
-Communication i.e talking with your teammates where and when objects are will decrease.
-Easier to hit the base with the bomb (Just IMO tho)
-More open field will make better players prosper and weaker players decline in skill. Because I see planes and predict where they will fly and where i should aim and when i should turn to hit the next players. I rarely focus on one plane which is why i often get multi-kills and certain people don't do this. Its like i lock onto 1 plane know i will kill him in this many shoots and upon firing i start looking for my next kill (don't do this with the best players tho)
-Maps are designed for a 100 plane/map scale changing this will alter nearly all the maps and will negatively impact the game.

Will Post more of my opinions soon this is just my first look at official.

P.S i play ALL perks and all planes in officials so if their is any unfairness to a certain plane with this scale i will be sure to share my ideas.

[tgleaf]

There's a small uproar from players in that server today. I don't think anyone has read this thread, and it's a fairly big change to make on an official server. Can you add an auto server message that pops up every so often either saying "view scale changed by devs" or "see forum thread for details" or something to that effect?

Some people are calling it a bug, others are trying to find an admin to change the "mistake," etc.

[Nikon]

I agree on some of mleds points, but I will try it out and give my thoughts.

[Clapon]

im interested but im not sure how i feel.

ill just have to check it out for myself first to get a real perspective

[[Y]]

Maybe 120 is a bit too much. May I suggest testing the New England setup: camera/plane scale of 110/95?

[andy]

Originally Posted by [Y]

Maybe 120 is a bit too much. May I suggest testing the New England setup: camera/plane scale of 110/95?

I really like the NE setup but just for 1DM i feel like tbd is fine as it is and i dont even wanna think about ball 6v6 with a 120 viewscale.

IMO either keep it like this or bring it to 105-110 viewscale and keep the planescale 100.

[Greekjr14]

Originally Posted by andy

I really like the NE setup but just for 1DM i feel like tbd is fine as it is and i dont even wanna think about ball 6v6 with a 120 viewscale.

IMO either keep it like this or bring it to 105-110 viewscale and keep the planescale 100.

this, 120 was like wtf mode to me. Being HC i liked the fact that i could see everyone and get easier snipes on them from far away, but I feel that other planes are at a disadvantage to this new viewscale.

[Kennedy]

I kind of love it.

[Ribilla]

I am open to this change, provided laser gets a doubling in range (also pierce and damage boost).

[Greekjr14]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

I am open to this change, provided laser gets a doubling in range (also pierce and damage boost).

this will only happen when HC gets bounce ability, more power, and is able to warp while doing damage.

[Mortva]

[elxir]

Originally Posted by [Y]

Maybe 120 is a bit too much. May I suggest testing the New England setup: camera/plane scale of 110/95?

NE server viewscale makes my eyes hurt

ETA: just went 18-0 in trickster with almost no effort, and no sound being used...you're going to have to nerf miranda so hard that you will be charged with child abuse.

the extra visibility is absolutely LOL for any plane not just randa...you can see literally anything coming ages before it can be a threat

RIP time anchor, no way it survives as we know it if this viewmode lasts...it will be godmode

i mean, i guess it does benefit good players because it's harder for bad players to randomly spam kill you...

note: i don't hate it, not even sure that i dislike it...i'm just saying it will fundamentally change the game and probably break a lot of perks

[mikesol]

Ya my poor ta will have to be nerfed drastically. It's sooo op in the 110 mode let alone the huge increase of visibility. Most of my deaths are simply due to a lack of information and visibility as it is.

While I think the idea is cool I worry that this could completely destroy the game play and balance that we all love. I mainly agree with mled on this.

Of course, it could turn out awesomely and lead to new tactics and more fun so more testing would be needed. I'd prefer to play some competitive games with this view mode and go from there.

[lamster]

I agree that a bunch of planes would need balance adjustments.

I also agree that 20% might be too much (Note: Official#1 is currently 1229x921 -- 71 pixels less wide and 121 pixels taller than the proposed 1280x800). Perhaps 1200x750, or even a not-quite-widescreen 1152x768 (just an extra 64 pixels on the left and right versus current 1024x768) would work better.

Please experiment with the higher view scale in a variety of contexts and provide feedback here. If you have a competitive scrimmage coming up, ask an admin to invoke /testCameraViewScale 120 before one match. All comments are appreciated. We'll be considering the options and feedback carefully before making any change of this magnitude.

[Winters Ark]

As of right now I don't like the new camera scale. I can't tell you exactly why yet, as I need to play it more to give a definitive answer.

[DiogenesDog]

I'll give it a try, but my first instinct is HELL YES.

You're going to get some griping early on, just like you would with any big change. And as you already know, it'll cause some balance problems that'll have to be ironed out.

But in the end, I think it'll be better for the game.


EDIT: Played with it on. Here's my "review":

- Feels like you're moving slightly slower, which is kind of a bummer. Not very noticeable, though.
- Spamming is still very much a part of the game.
- I really liked how much more I felt like I could "plan ahead". I didn't suffer as many deaths that seemed unavoidable because I was heading into a messed up situation.
- Plane gfx look nicer in the standard scale.
- Justice was a much more enjoyable map at the new scale.
- The game feels really claustrophobic when you play at this scale for a while and then go back to the default scale.

In the end, I'm still in favor.

[Wyrd]

I've set the Arr #2 server to this scale, so EU people can try it out without lag.

[mssv]

I think this is a step to the right direction. When I realised that matches were so individual skill dependent I was about to quit, there's little to none strategy or need of leadership in matches as it is now, this change goes against individual reflexes in favour to smart/organised play and that's what Altitude should be at a competitive level.

Being able to have a wider view allows a team to elaborate more their tactic and adapt to match needs. As it's now individual skill and randomness spam kills have too much weight in the outcome of a match. Any change that lesser those factors is a good step for any game that aims to have a competitive stage.

[Demuyt]

Tried it and liked it. I could choose my targets from a distance on hills then move in to laser them.

[Mortva]

Ripping planes or making greater balance adjustments could lead to losing a lot (or only a few?) players. As far as I am concerned, I wouldn't want to adapt and have my favorite plane (ya, ya, I know...) nerfed/beefed up all over. I don't know if I'm the only one but I really don't see any benefit in this. Sry.

[Element]

this is something new, but it would be great. yes pls

[Ribilla]

I kind of agree with Mort, in that changing the scale might be slightly better for overall teamplay extra, but it is likely to alienate a lot of the already small player base, without helping to bring in more to replace them. If anything it makes it harder for new players to get kills, which is kind of offputting for them.

I might be a good change (though I am not decided yet, I don't think it's great) but I don't think it's worth killing alti over. As someone who's played online games which have died due to riskier patches before, I wouldn't recommend rocking the boat too much.

EDIT: Best way I can think to implement this, if you are really committed, would be to make Altitude 2, with a completely different plane balance. Or to have the ability to keep some servers 'new alti' (with the nerfs/buffs etc) and some vanilla.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Please, please make this happen. The limited view is the only thing I do not like about this otherwise amazing game. It is just silly how little you can see horizontally. It is so much better playing with the expanded view and not having to shoot blind so much. I can certainly understand limitations on the view, but what we have now is far too restricted.

Although I would love to see this change implemented as is, at an absolute minimum we need to current vertical res expanded horizontally to a widescreen ratio.

[Goose]

I guess it will just take some getting used to...Mled touched on a lot of valid concerns.. I feel that the game would definitely shift to more reacting to what you see rather than using any instinctual play based on prediction on enemy movements/tendencies.

I'll play some more and give some more feedback..Maybe we can test this a bit before or after APL as there will be a bunch of clans around at the time to see how a competitive game fares

[mled]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

- Spamming is still very much a part of the game.

Spamming is a part of any game of this type. You cant get rid of it and still have various planes.

[MintzMachete]

TA so op. Randa so OP. I like current better.

[blln4lyf]

Not sure. Having a larger view lets you read more of the playing field which is good for the strategic side of the game but I'm not sure about making such a huge change at this point.
I was running with TA most of the time, and in terms of running, you can see when you push much easier than just the feel of it/do you see spam/movement.
Not sure I think TA is super buffed in this style, as it helps every plane see a larger view obviously, and those spam deaths/etc. most of them while not initially avoided, are avoided with a TA or a dip down/up through turning anyway. All it does is give you more a little more time to react, which every plane has. If anything it should increase teamwork.
If some of the vet's seem against it, you could always just do something in between the 2 like you suggested.

[Pieface]

The real question for me is whether you think moving to a widescreen ratio would get more people interested in the game - is it worth risking a portion of the current playerbase and having to rebalance in order to make this change?

As much as I love NE scale and the idea of playing widescreen, I'm not sure that the benefits would outweigh the costs in the change.

[mssv]

Wow, I can't believe how ppl think in such egoistic way, it's an obvious improvement towards teamplay and competition.

I don't think a lot of adjustments are needed, defensive planes like whales will have a harder time killing but an easier to defend and survive. TA will be auto nerfed, since it would be easier for the other team to spot it and see how/when he could approach to base giving them more precision to counter/timing it.

I also feels that my plane is weaker that way since I lose a lot of surprise factor which is key to kill some planes but come on... We shouldn't be thinking about how that affect our "l33tneSs"...

[elxir]

Originally Posted by mssv

Wow, I can't believe how ppl think in such egoistic way, it's an obvious improvement towards teamplay and competition.

I don't think a lot of adjustments are needed, defensive planes like whales will have a harder time killing but an easier to defend and survive. TA will be auto nerfed, since it would be easier for the other team to spot it and see how/when he could approach to base giving them more precision to counter/timing it.

I also feels that my plane is weaker that way since I lose a lot of surprise factor which is key to kill some planes but come on... We shouldn't be thinking about how that affect our "l33tneSs"...

you are just plain wrong about the lack of teamwork and leadership in competitive settings, by the way.

[mssv]

Originally Posted by elxir

you are just plain wrong about the lack of teamwork and leadership in competitive settings, by the way.

Could you please post a video where I could appreciate different tactics for each team, or counter tactics, further than the very basics I always see, please?

[MajorPayne257]

For those of you who don't frequent the Steam forums, no widescreen support has been quite a big deal:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=1276195

I haven't decided how I feel about this yet, mainly because I'm still using a 4:3 monitor (damn college...), but I feel as if no widescreen support has prevented a lot of newbies from staying. On the other hand, I often fear change (damn childhood...) and if I lost Altitude due to a huge playerbase hit or a balance patch that I don't agree with, I'd be a very, very sad panda.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by mssv

Could you please post a video where I could appreciate different tactics for each team, or counter tactics, further than the very basics I always see, please?

It's difficult to show just a video - being on a team with voice communication and where each person knows exactly what they are supposed to do and when to do it...

A very basic example would be player 1,2,3 are supposed to immediately kill turrets x,y, and players 4,5 are supposed to get center map control.

I don't think widescreen would really improve upon this sort of thing, as it is all about communication...

Something widescreen would likely improve is an increase in plays of this nature: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQbbw...ailpage#t=463s

However, that sort of play is largely intuitive: you know you are clearing the ball from your own zone, so naturally (hopefully) one of your lights is respawning and cutting across the middle for a pass.

Being able to see more of the map could free up the ball game to a degree, and create more passing - and get heavier planes more involved in passing, since they are theoretically supposed to be the best at it.

The gameplay of ball seems like it would be improved by having greater visibility...until you realize the planes have guns.

I know it will make the game change in one sense though...one of the best strategies a miranda has in goal defense is to hover just outside the SIGHT RANGE of enemies approaching the goal - they will more often than not shoot the ball if they think they are alone - and the miranda can double warp, snatch the ball, and save the day. This strategy seems impractical now since the enemy can like, see you and realize they shouldn't shoot.

Just some impressions.

edit: another example of team strategy is in knowing who to kill. For example, when the enemy is pushing on your base, the lighter planes should flank - quickly, and a) try to take out the runner, b) get smoking planes, and c) deal as much damage as possible while the remaining planes prevent a lob onto the base.

While this may seem like "individual skill," in reality it is each player knowing what their role is - the heavies are large, they keep the base from getting lobbed. The lights are fast and do massive DPS - they focus down the runner and any trailers...it may seem basic, but a lot of runs success and failure depends on whether teams are capable of executing together...

ETA (again): listen to tyr and cloud talk about sammiches strategy...http://www.youtube.com/user/tyraltit.../1/vCzuKxHN-pA

[Kuja900]

I feel like doing this would in a sense deskill Altitude and make it a lesser game. There are many subtle skills better players have developed to give them an edge over the competition and this widescreen view would make many of them useless. For example such skills as paying attention to kills/deaths, having someone to lead you out when you have the bomb to avoid ambushes, being knowledgeable about position on the map to avoid spam zones all become far less important since you can just see so much more directly. To succeed in this game competitively you need to combine information from many different sources in order to plan your maneuvers in advance, a widescreen would overpower raw visual information and just make it too easy. Its the taking advantage of all these little nuances that make this game so great and I don't want to see them go.

edit: I also don't like my plane feeling so small but thats not really a point.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by DiogenesDog

I'll give it a try, but my first instinct is HELL YES.

You're going to get some griping early on, just like you would with any big change. And as you already know, it'll cause some balance problems that'll have to be ironed out.

But in the end, I think it'll be better for the game.


EDIT: Played with it on. Here's my "review":

- Feels like you're moving slightly slower, which is kind of a bummer. Not very noticeable, though.
- Spamming is still very much a part of the game.
- I really liked how much more I felt like I could "plan ahead". I didn't suffer as many deaths that seemed unavoidable because I was heading into a messed up situation.
- Plane gfx look nicer in the standard scale.
- Justice was a much more enjoyable map at the new scale.
- The game feels really claustrophobic when you play at this scale for a while and then go back to the default scale.

In the end, I'm still in favor.

I really want to talk about this point dio made. There are no unavoidable deaths in this game. By keeping track of how many planes the other team has alive and the positioning of your team you should never find yourself in a "messed up situation" as long as you are taking advantage of all the information available to you. You can already also "plan ahead" to quite some degree if you just know where your team is at and have some general idea about the location of the other team and their numbers, the widescreen takes the fun out of this by just showing you where these players are at directly. A widescreen removes all elements of surprise and makes ambushes and more sneaky plays impossible since you are so exposed. There are so many fun things you can do now that you could hardly ever if ever do with a widescreen such as bomb run counters and carrier snipes that really add something to the game.