An open letter to BALL server admins...

[tgleaf]

Dear Admin,

I know that you love your football server. I know that it's popular. I know that at any given time, I can log in and see 14/14 in several football-only servers. I know that it's a fun map for some people. I know that it's great for beginners, but that even elixir can improve his randa skills on it.

But please, consider adding other maps. I really have nothing against ball_football. I hate it, but I recognize that some people love it. Whatever, that's fine. But when there are 42 people online and the only option I have is to play football, it's just not enjoyable. I have no idea if most of those people are also playing other maps on other servers or if they just (gasp) live in ball_football. But why not add a few more maps so that football is an option but not the only option?

I'll spare you the "it's ruining Altitude speech" but that's certainly part of where this is coming from. If you play football 24/7 you're going to get really good at football. If you play football 15% of the time and other maps 85% of the time, you're going to get really good at every map, including football. Why not *help* people get to that point?

Sincerely,
tgleaf

[Demuyt]

I totally agree with this.

Football certainly is a fun map to play, what makes it unique is the fact that there are no obstacles.

No obstacles mean easier flying for newer players and more kills for more experienced players. Top it off with two goals and a ball and you have football, the map that attracts more and more players every day.
Football servers are loved by a lot of people because they do not require much skill and help to pass time. However becoming better and having a shot at entering competitive altitude becomes more and more difficult for the new players because they do not learn basic stuff like manoeuvering between obstacles and using cover.

[Goose]

Numerous attempts to civilize the ball football community have failed.. There is no hope left for these people. We must leave them be, and hope for the best i'm afraid.

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by Goose

Numerous attempts to civilize the ball football community have failed.. There is no hope left for these people. We must leave them be, and hope for the best i'm afraid.

Would cookies help?

[Evan20000]

This planet is uninhabitable. We must not dawdle here and move on to another planet with natural resources.

[[Y]]

No we must stay here and go through an elaborate Hollywood plot in our quest for the coveted unobtanium. In 3D, of course.

[Boko]

ball_football? HISSSS HISSSSSS

[JDR]

I think we should keep them away from the mayhem too. Bringing them into our cities whose cores are destabilizing is reckless; we'd likely have to hide out in caves and grottos, which creates a whole labyrinth of problems that could ultimately lead to a very dark war between our people. And then, ONLY after the snow has melted, would we be able to rise up and return to our lost cities while praying that we don't suddenly get pummeled by asteroids.

[elxir]

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by JDR

I think we should keep them away from the mayhem too. Bringing them into our cities whose cores are destabilizing is reckless; we'd likely have to hide out in caves and grottos, which creates a whole labyrinth of problems that could ultimately lead to a very dark war between our people. And then, ONLY after the snow has melted, would we be able to rise up and return to our lost cities while praying that we don't suddenly get pummeled by asteroids.

Can that be added to the marketing materials for Alty? Nice work.

[Clapon]

Originally Posted by elxir

****in i was gonna post this

[shrode]

best post i have seen on these forums in a long time. well done, JDR.

But yeah, try other maps! And then try to get good enough for ladder! And be awesome!

[Premier Stalin]

Originally Posted by shrode

best post i have seen on these forums in a long time. well done, JDR.
!

+1 charrrrrs

[ledow]

Started with a football-only server because, hell, it's the best thing for a quick, fun game and I didn't know what else to try - my server was set up for me to play a quick, fun, online game without any serious dedication required or conforming to other's strict play-types.

After a while (because of similar complaints to yours) I added complete, separate, servers - one for every game mode - and you could vote all the official maps for that game mode on all of them. This included an "all-ball-maps" server. I also added a second football-only server.

A few months later, with time for people to adjust and make themselves feel at home, I see a couple of people occasionally on FFA - I always feel sorry for them and try to join to make up the numbers if I see them in there. I think it was full for a single game once.

I see nobody at all on the other game modes, ever (maybe 1 but then nobody else joins them). The second football-only server is full most of the time and people use it as a feed-in to the original football server I made. Hardly anyone is ever on the BALL server where you can vote any of the official maps. The only time I see people in there, they have joined because they've seen others on there playing football.

Personally, I have no preference and will play anything but the fact is that if you want to play with a team of random strangers, football is pretty much the only map that will attract. Anything else and you'll sit in an empty server for a long time, unless you bring your mates (and clan-play and random-stranger-play are two entirely different ways of playing a game).

I've left the servers up for months but, to be honest, that's only because they come "for free" with the extra capacity of a server I have for something else. Whereas the original football-only server is worth paying for just for the atmosphere and community in there.

You can be as elitest as you like, saying that other maps show better players etc. but, outside of clan-play, people are attracted to and play a lot more football than any other map (probably because most people do just want a quick game to waste an hour, rather than having to learn new maps and strategise what is basically a multiplayer shoot-em-up). To the point that even an all-map ball server which sits on the same server as my football-only servers is empty most of the time. And yet, my football-only servers are full every night.

If I was an advertiser, and it were possible, I'd be advertising on the football-only servers and not waste my time on the others (except possibly ladder but that's more to do with it's unique position in terms of statistics and rankings etc.)

[tgleaf]

Originally Posted by ledow

You can be as elitest as you like, saying that other maps show better players etc. but, outside of clan-play, people are attracted to and play a lot more football than any other map (probably because most people do just want a quick game to waste an hour, rather than having to learn new maps and strategise what is basically a multiplayer shoot-em-up). To the point that even an all-map ball server which sits on the same server as my football-only servers is empty most of the time. And yet, my football-only servers are full every night.

You make some really good points and I was especially hoping to hear from you when I created this thread. I'll drop my campaign against football servers. And it's not that I'm elitist, but rather that I like some variety. I'd rather play with bad/fun players on ten different maps than bad/fun players on one map over and over. But as I said, that's just me. Some people like repetition.

But your point about the players having spoken is the main one that matters from a server admin perspective.

[Zed556]

You have a lot more time to be silly on ball_football. On AIR, there's a certain air(hur hur) of performance(at least for me), so I'm stuck to trying to play decent and leave my fantastic personality for more casual airspace.

It's also a great place for when you want to learn how to develop that deep, seething hatred for loopies. Or just work on your already seething hatred.

[JDR]

maybe the football servers could have their end of round voting always have ball_football in it, and two other random options, idk if that's possible?

[MajorPayne257]

I'm right with you tg. I hate seeing football-only servers making up a good 75% of the full servers at any given time, but as you said Ledow, the players have chosen.

I have nothing against football, but for those of us who don't like playing it for hours on end, the situation kind of sucks.

[yankinlk]

I'm sure the guy that invented crack cocaine had a very similar argument as to why he was justified creating it.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by ledow

Started with a football-only server because, hell, it's the best thing for a quick, fun game and I didn't know what else to try - my server was set up for me to play a quick, fun, online game without any serious dedication required or conforming to other's strict play-types.

After a while (because of similar complaints to yours) I added complete, separate, servers - one for every game mode - and you could vote all the official maps for that game mode on all of them. This included an "all-ball-maps" server. I also added a second football-only server.

A few months later, with time for people to adjust and make themselves feel at home, I see a couple of people occasionally on FFA - I always feel sorry for them and try to join to make up the numbers if I see them in there. I think it was full for a single game once.

I see nobody at all on the other game modes, ever (maybe 1 but then nobody else joins them). The second football-only server is full most of the time and people use it as a feed-in to the original football server I made. Hardly anyone is ever on the BALL server where you can vote any of the official maps. The only time I see people in there, they have joined because they've seen others on there playing football.

Personally, I have no preference and will play anything but the fact is that if you want to play with a team of random strangers, football is pretty much the only map that will attract. Anything else and you'll sit in an empty server for a long time, unless you bring your mates (and clan-play and random-stranger-play are two entirely different ways of playing a game).

I've left the servers up for months but, to be honest, that's only because they come "for free" with the extra capacity of a server I have for something else. Whereas the original football-only server is worth paying for just for the atmosphere and community in there.

You can be as elitest as you like, saying that other maps show better players etc. but, outside of clan-play, people are attracted to and play a lot more football than any other map (probably because most people do just want a quick game to waste an hour, rather than having to learn new maps and strategise what is basically a multiplayer shoot-em-up). To the point that even an all-map ball server which sits on the same server as my football-only servers is empty most of the time. And yet, my football-only servers are full every night.

If I was an advertiser, and it were possible, I'd be advertising on the football-only servers and not waste my time on the others (except possibly ladder but that's more to do with it's unique position in terms of statistics and rankings etc.)

Your server is a big n00b-zone, and n00bs attract n00bs. And as yankinlk said, I'd rather advertise crystal meth than coffee, but is it really something you wanna advertise?

If servers are running decent with a couple of friends constantly playing on them they start to develop a small community around them. You just had the bad luck that your community developed around the most n00b map of them all: ball_football.

You're limiting people's fun imo.

[lamster]

As someone who played de_dust exclusively for his first several hundred hours of Counter-Strike, I completely understand how some people can play 24/7 ball_football.

Of course we'd love for competitively inclined players to move on to more technical maps and stronger competition, but ball_football doesn't prevent them from doing that. The ladder servers are often at the top of the server list; competitive players can find competition if they look.

Experience has proven that many players will seek out the ball_football experience. I'm thankful to ledow for running high-quality, moderated servers that serve a huge fraction of our player base.

[Echo Mirage]

I have a middlin' take on this.

When Ledow set up his fball server, it was the place to go for horsery and waiting for other servers' queues to pop. That was good. Who doesn't like at least ten seconds of pub football? If you say you don't, you're either lying or confused; it's the best place to see the newbies (and thereby see the future of the game, don't forget that), and the best place to tell them that there are other games to be had, and recruit them into the ranks of well-rounded alty-buddies.

That said, football's become institutionalized, and it's bad. Probably the most significant damage this game has seen has been done by the likes of Ducky with [yet another] football server, with something like a 32 player max; the window-licking tard factor there is extreme, to put it lightly. Dedicated football clans dealing crack to each other in the park without the benefit of clue, foresight, or daylight doesn't get anyone closer to ladder, or even slightly more-clued pub action. It's really a disservice.

I'll be the first to admit that I mostly rock pubs. I don't do formalized play in Alt. I even enjoy football in its place. But, as Leaf wanted to say, the state of one TBD ladder server, one ball ladder server, and eight football pubs on a given night is a sad one. This is not how to get new players on the right track. By definition, nubs don't know what's going on, and they learn by what they're exposed to; only providing football overmaxed pubs does us all the greatest harm in the long run.

Won't anyone think of the goddamned children?

[elxir]

I like football servers.

[Echo Mirage]

Originally Posted by elxir

I like football servers.

Good, because that's all we get now.

Today: one ladder server maxed, and two football servers, not counting the one FFA with a rank nineteen on it that I scared away.

Not often does a game's admins kill the game itself. Enjoy this bit of history in the making.

[rojo]

Originally Posted by Echo Mirage

Good, because that's all we get now.

Today: one ladder server maxed, and two football servers, not counting the one FFA with a rank nineteen on it that I scared away.

Not often does a game's admins kill the game itself. Enjoy this bit of history in the making.

To get off topic for a second: i lol'd at this post because you are/were the ****tiest dojo admin for probably 6 months and killed the experience with you booting as soon as people went to spec. Mehbe krawzy talked to you but you really ruined ball experience in a pub setting towards a bunch of people who needed to take a leak in between matches.

Back to football. To me its a chicken or the egg type of thing. I remember playing in the TOTAL noob servers and everybody would vote ball_football whenever it turned to FFA or TDM. There definately was an appeal and some satisfaction to jamming F and getting goals. I don't fault the servers tbh.People are not all that intense about this game as we all who inhabt the forums. i agree with elxir that there are some benefits to it and good in a mindelss sort of way or learning to play TA in aloopy ****storm. Beyond that this is a game and if people are having fun spaming F for 30 minutes, more power to them.

[Echo Mirage]

Originally Posted by rojo

To get off topic for a second: i lol'd at this post because you are/were the ****tiest dojo admin for probably 6 months and killed the experience with you booting as soon as people went to spec. Mehbe krawzy talked to you but you really ruined ball experience in a pub setting towards a bunch of people who needed to take a leak in between matches.

Understood. But what you didn't see, as a pubstar whiner, was the eleventy players that would spec for five minutes, join for one play, and spec again, thereby defeating the AFK timer. This practice was endemic, and it needed policing. Until now I haven't heard a complaint about it, and I'm sorry if your abuse of that system and getting called on it made you forum-bitter.

When you have to admin against that, you'll understand. Or not. I don't admin Dojo any longer, but I've been there and it's terrible to have to adjuticate those offenses. Keep speculating on what krawz did or didn't say, though.

Originally Posted by rojo

Back to football.

Good to know you returned to the topic at hand, if somewhat laboriously.

Originally Posted by rojo

To me its a chicken or the egg type of thing. I remember playing in the TOTAL noob servers and everybody would vote ball_football whenever it turned to FFA or TDM. There definately was an appeal and some satisfaction to jamming F and getting goals. I don't fault the servers tbh.People are not all that intense about this game as we all who inhabt the forums. i agree with elxir that there are some benefits to it and good in a mindelss sort of way or learning to play TA in aloopy ****storm. Beyond that this is a game and if people are having fun spaming F for 30 minutes, more power to them.

Mostly valid points, but you ignore the overall trend toward fostering nubism blindly. Ad hominem attacks aside, do you seriously condone Alt's leaning toward football spamfests if 'the people want it'?

[Urpee]

Right now just one football server, but both ball dojo and official bouncy are full. I think it's fine.

[darknietzsche]

Originally Posted by Urpee

Right now just one football server, but both ball dojo and official bouncy are full. I think it's fine.

Not to chime in much but this is only the case because ladder is down.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by lamster

As someone who played de_dust exclusively for his first several hundred hours of Counter-Strike, I completely understand how some people can play 24/7 ball_football.

Of course we'd love for competitively inclined players to move on to more technical maps and stronger competition, but ball_football doesn't prevent them from doing that. The ladder servers are often at the top of the server list; competitive players can find competition if they look.

Experience has proven that many players will seek out the ball_football experience. I'm thankful to ledow for running high-quality, moderated servers that serve a huge fraction of our player base.

You should be thankful to ball_football hosters for destroying your marketing when they ruined the steam event with 64 man servers. The hotfix of reducing the amount of players allowed in a server was too late and didn't help anymore. I wish you had numbers on people who play ball_football a lot and people who don't play ball_football as often. I think you'd see quite some differences in playtime and invites of other players.

I actually talked to some people who tried alti out during the event. They thought it was a massive spam/lag fest when they joined the massive ball_football servers. They didn't see the easy to play/hard to master factor that I did when I started alti: they're stuck on the easy to play.

You wanna know why this quality game isn't exploding with popularity? Ball_football servers and failed marketing attempts.

[Urpee]

Being nice and welcoming to newcomers does wonders to retaining and enlisting them. Not everybody has the ego that it requires to take the kind of crap newbies take from some veterans on dojo and ladder.

Instead it seems like taking away from people what is a fun game mode for them is the solution. I am not buying it. Be nice, mentor, encourage, and show the fun parts of the game. That'll do more for altitude than shutting down game modes that people actually play.

[rojo]

Re echo -
I do not think the servers are fostering nubism this blindly. They are providing a service for tje community. If ledow took his football server another one would pop up. If football map was removed from altitude another map would arrise from the ashes at this point.

What I am interested in knowing is how many different players play in the server.

[ledow]

Going only by my football-only server #1, I executed a command which covers logs from 29/05 to today (so, call it a week). This week is half-term so that may not be perfectly typical but I'm not seeing any more traffic than normal (about 50Gb per month of altitude traffic) so I'd assume it was about even, really.

This command looked for join requests from the server logs, strips them out to just leave the vaporId and nothing else, chops out all duplicate entries, and counts the number of entries left. So what you're getting is the number of ***unique*** vaporId's that joined one of my football-only servers in the past week:

The result?

5361

I haven't run the same command on the other servers because I'd expect football #2 to do about one-half to the same of that, and the others to be virtually empty.

[Boko]

So everyone thinks football spam/lag fests are a good way to encourage players to buy the game? That's probably why so many players stayed around after the steam event.

[yankinlk]

Originally Posted by Boko

You wanna know why this quality game isn't exploding with popularity? Ball_football servers and failed marketing attempts.

It needs a SnackBox360 or a Sony HackStation version to go global stupid huge. And even then it needs a single player mode with a story. I vote SSD to script an adventure story where the player is verbally abused over and over by the narrative... If it doesn't drive them away it will a least prepare them for ladder.

[{T}Blasty McDick 8==D]

I don't really mind football per se. Like someone said above, anyone who says they can't enjoy a few minutes of football is blowing smoke. But what I can't stand is when I'm trapped in football (or the worst - bouncy football) hell because Dojo is full or because everything else is totally full.

So is the problem that good ppl like Ledow are putting football servers out there, or that there aren't enough quality ball/other servers?

[Princess Squirtle]

ball_football is a good way to start playing this game because it doesn't need much skills to enjoy it and see the impact you're making on a game. You don't spend your time being killed every two seconds by thermo, for example. And you can actually develop enough skills to be decent on other maps, because you learn how to avoid people shooting at you, hence learning how your plane work. You still need a bit of time to adapt, but it comes quick (enough).
ball_football is also more enjoyable for most peeps because it works with a clock. Games last for a certain time, so you have the thrill of the last minutes, hoping for a comeback or trying to keep your advantage during that time. And also because altitude has a casual aspect, a clock let you keep tracks on your gaming time.

Lots of people went to ball_football to other maps because of the boredom the repetitiveness of that map eventually leads. Either players will quit the game (which is sad, and could maybe solved by that vote proposition told earlier on this thread) or start playing on other maps. I think this map is actually a (good) bridge between being new at this game and playing with better skills on regular maps. Regular maps are also a bridge between being good at this game and being a great/elite player thanks to ladder servers.

Lately though, more room in ladder servers led to less activity in other regular ball servers, because there's less players to start/fill those servers. You don't see as often Dojo and bouncy, Air and arr servers full at the same time as before, because players are busy playing in both 26 bladder servers.

My concern here, is that players in ball_football don't have nowadays enough occasions to actually try other maps and start playing more those maps, so they tend to stay on ball_football. The players that used to wait in queue for bladder were playing in a non-bladder server, therefore allowing new players to join. Like someone else said, servers start because friends/clans members start them, a new player won't be able to do that. The bridge that existed between regular maps and ball_football servers is slowly fading away, and will probably lead to a decrease of the number of players in the game.

Now, add to that the problem of the number of ball_football servers. There are a lot of those servers, surely too many. And the more there is, the more the players used to play ball_football will start a ball_football server instead of joining/trying to start a regular maps server, even if it's just to wait in queue for a ball_football server.


On different matters, one of the reason players won't stay on this game is because of lag and how it affect so much the game. Many new players complain about this and it's really hard to get over it (just see how over-1000h-of-playtime players still complain about this. Hi me). But it's an unsolvable problem. It could be reduced a little by a stricter ping limit kick though, especially on ball_football where the number of new players is the largest and where lag has the biggest impact.

[ledow]

I have 5 spare altitude servers at my disposal, with complete control over their configuration and even programming/scripting knowledge if I need it. Apart from football-only #2, they are always empty. What are the people in this thread suggesting as a fix for this perceived problem? Close the football-only server (or make it vote-map which would make it exactly the same as my BALL-only server that's currently empty)? Start more servers on other game types (I cover all except the 1XX modes)? Shove people onto a different server using that new command that lets me do this as soon as they join my football-only? And say I do something to address the above, you'll be expecting the majority of ball_football servers to do the same?

The problem is not the existence of any one particular server, or even groups of servers. The problem is that there's virtually nothing that can be done about it except action which will severely annoy existing players. There's no way to differentiate between the "noob" who wants to play football "just because" and the experienced guy on a new account that has become bored with the other game types or is just waiting to join his favourite server elsewhere. Anything I try to do about it will annoy someone, somewhere, and either turn them off my servers or, if enough servers do it, turn them off the game.

I took this seriously the last time someone come up with such a complaint, not wanting to fragment the userbase any more than necessary, hence Ledow servers #3-6, which sit empty all day long at my expense. And then my girlfriend started nagging about not understanding why I played the game so much - so I bought her a copy. She now *only* plays on my football-only server, even if I'm not there, because the other maps "make her crash too much" and the other game types are "boring" or "too hard". This is a PhD-qualified research scientist we're talking about. You can lecture her all you like about having to improve her play, or better herself, or spreading her skills but she puts in dozens of hours of the game (at no harm to anyone else) just flying around an obstruction-less map, talking to people, and scoring goals. There's a clue in the genre name: It's a game. Some people play games as casual entertainment and really, really aren't interested in anything that requires thought. Have you not seen the Wii Store?

Personally, I don't see that any action required by a server admin to solve the problem will ever reasonably happen. And I don't see any action that can be done outside those channels that would have much effect. To my mind, if you want to encourage use of a particular game mode, you're really talking advertising - either making a bigger fuss of that mode in-game, or adding more Steam achievements related to that mode, or running competitions around that mode, etc. All the usual things that would draw people in anyway (though not in the numbers some people on here seem to think).

And all that effort would be wiped out by a single advertising campaign, or new port (Where's my Altitude on Wii!!!! ), or just a general flux in users. You can't "hold on" to users that you don't know why they left, and you can't guess about their intentions without surveying a huge swathe of them. Steam promotions will always provide a temporary hit followed by a lull, you can't help that. And Altitude WILL slowly lose players over time. You can't help that. I've said on here before, I can't guarantee that my servers will be running in a year's time - gaming communities are just that fragile. Some stick around for decades and some die overnight and from inside the community it's impossible to tell them apart until it happens.

I have some Steam games that I got as part of 8-packs and played once and never went back because it just wasn't my kind of game, or played through to get the achievements I enjoyed trying to get and then just left the game community (haven't run Left4Dead 2 in months and I loved that at one point). That's the way things are.

Talking of Steam - I have some leftover Steam games on my account that I can gift, from where I bought 4- and 8- packs of games for my friends. I've been toying with the idea of using them as a competition prize but haven't yet decided on the parameters. I think I'd be prepared to offer them as a prize or encouragement to boost a particular game mode, but where would something like that start? And isn't that just bribing people to play a game mode temporarily and still leave us in the same problem in a week's time?

You can ask people to stop running servers, but that would be an extraordinary step in my opinion - "Help support our game by not donating your time, effort, money and bandwidth to run the vital servers for our multiplayer game!". Seems more than a little odd. And most people who play online games will immediately hit "crappy" servers that they wouldn't want to play on. If they have even half a brain cell they will just try another, or try "official-looking" or popular servers. Have you seen what the Warcraft and Gun-game mods did to Counterstrike? It ruined it, in my opinion, so I only seek out non-Warcraft-GG CS servers.

Give us some solutions, not problems, and then we can discuss them. Until them, it's like the widescreen argument - we all have an opinion but nobody is going to change their personal habits/preferences just because someone on the Internet asked them to.

What can I, as a server admin, do about it?

[tgleaf]

ledow,

I know you're responding to everyone in this thread, but since I started it I'll share my thoughts with you. I'm not asking you to take down your servers and I understand that you've provided football servers and standard ball servers at your own expense and that no one is filling up the non-football servers. Along with the devs, I'm thankful that you provide a popular and reliable server. I hope that comes across in my posts even though I'm critical of the particular configuration of your ball_football server.

I think I just get disappointed when I log in and there always seem to be two to three 14/14 football servers and only a couple of players in standard ball servers. If I had my way, I'd want to see the football servers taken offline for a week and see if those same players gravitate to non-football servers. By the way, I'd be just as disappointed with two 14/14 darkwar servers, or whatever. It's not just about football. I'd love to see an experiment where those 28 players are tracked to see if they (a) move to a non-football server for the same amount of time, (b) move to a non-football server and /vote for football until they get it, or (c) leave the game altogether.

I don't expect you to be able to run that type of experiment or track players from other servers, etc. I'm just throwing that out there because it has bothered me.

I do agree that there needs to be a place for fun/casual players to just have fun and not be in a competitive or frustrating environment. That is indeed good for the company's bottom line. But I also think it's worthwhile to consider whether players who play in football continuously stay with the game a long time or whether they grow tired of the monotony and leave it earlier than players who play a variety of maps and ultimately get interested in clans, ladder, and leagues. Again, I don't expect you to have the answers to that, I'm just thinking out loud.

[phong]

Originally Posted by lamster

As someone who played de_dust exclusively for his first several hundred hours of Counter-Strike, I completely understand how some people can play 24/7 ball_football.

Of course we'd love for competitively inclined players to move on to more technical maps and stronger competition, but ball_football doesn't prevent them from doing that. The ladder servers are often at the top of the server list; competitive players can find competition if they look.

Experience has proven that many players will seek out the ball_football experience. I'm thankful to ledow for running high-quality, moderated servers that serve a huge fraction of our player base.

I still and only play cs_office in css :/

[phong]

I could bring back 60v60 football???