Laser.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by idk

Sorry to say this, but I really cant believe why laser has not been changed yet. The overpowerness is obvious. They never miss, which means they do always to one-hit kills, no matter what plane.
They are mostly on top with best ratio in TBD-games, which means they kill the most and die the least. Still, they can run bombs and balls like a randa, which is probly the best plane for it.

When you got 150 ms of lag, they do got a hitrange that reaches across the whole screen. If not, they will just warp to catch up with you. Then they escape the scene like a ghost.
Most skilled players that I have been talking to agree with this. Im not sure why there has not been posting about this on forums, maybe they believe it wont help or something similar, it's pretty common with game communities to report bugs.
I would really have a reason why this has not been changed!

I feel like this probably needs some discussion if "most skilled players" think it's OP. Obviously I'm biased because I exclusively play laser in tbd, but while I think laser did feel OP a couple of months ago, there has been a shift (in ladder at least) to HC and trickster as whoring planes, which naturally counter laser.

Here is a list of the top 25 in tbd ladder right now and what they play:

# 1 donk - TA
# 2 [TBD]Aya[PRO] - Trickster
# 3 [fLb] Ingbo - TA (this is Sky)
# 4 Hollywood. - Bomber
# 5 ingbo - Laser
# 6 Nade - Bomber
# 7 ///tVo.number3[qq] - Laser
# 8 EqUIVOqUE - Laser
# 9 [fLb]ViPR - HC
# 10 [qq] {ball}'n - TA
# 11 {r87}Radium - Acid
# 12 PATATE - Remote
# 13 tm!c|IL - TA
# 14 EXAPOTAMUS - Laser
# 15 Blue Smurf - Laser
# 16 KLF.mssv - Recoiless
# 17 shmo55 - Laser
# 18 [BBqq]trendy - Bomber
# 19 [FRO]GOOSE - Thermo
# 20 {SWN}Fartface - Laser/Remote
# 21 mled - Bomber
# 22 Professor X - Remote
# 23 XX2 - HC
# 24 KLF.lemon - Trickster
# 25 [FRO]RICINBEANS - Trickster

So there are 7 lasers in the top 25, which is more than any other plane. Of those 2 (Rib and Knip) use it primarily for whoring and the others all use it as a supplement to their running. I don't know whether this constitutes an OP plane or not. The bombers in that list tend to be better at killing and the TAs much better at scoring base hits. Personally I think at least part of the apparent OPness is that laser is a plane which allows you to both kill and run, so people only need to learn one plane to be successful. It's hard to see whether there is a trend of people switching to trickster from this data, as I think it has only started to happen recently, so it doesn't show yet.

I think there is a ping problem with laser and reducing this would solve a lot of the peoples problems with the plane. I don't know how this works, would it be possible to host information about the laser both serverside and client side (apparently this is what BF3 is doing). The two most whore lasers there both have EU pings (I am at about 100 and Knip is a little higher, around 140).

Personally, as far as game changing abilities go, I think TA is more of a problem than laser, but that's for a different thread.

[ufo]

long distance shotgun that doesnt lose accuracy or damage the further away from it an enemy plain is. qtf?

o and you can turn around instantly with it.

[classicallad]

The thing is is that the patches are geared toward ball as ball is the #1 played mode right now, which doesnt mean that planes cant be balanced per mode, ofc they should.

I feel that mirandas as a whole have too much utility as i have been saying for the last 6 months lol.

[Beagle]

Miranda in general has always been overpowered. Near-instant kills, supreme mobility which doubles as amazing evasive ability that it can pull off constantly all day every day by just spamming a button like a desktop drinking bird.

You just get used to it and stay safe in the knowledge that the only thing they don't have is dignity.

[sunshineduck]

tbf, i was like 1700 in trickster and saw a huge rating spike immediately upon switching back to laser. after playing solely trick for my first 150+ games of this season, i think i'm pretty sure why my rating spiked that hard. it's because i'm mechanically awful at this game. my reflexes are ****, i have aim that's akin to a blind man's, and i can't play one game without humiliatingly crashing multiple times. this makes playing trickster at a high level nigh impossible unless opposing planes suicide themselves into my misplaced shots, which isn't a common enough occurence to keep me at a consistently high level of play. laser is super easy. it does very high dps negating the fact that i'm wasting dps time readjusting my badly aimed laser, and warping allows me to gain optimal position while still dealing damage. this helps me counteract the fact that i am, as previously stated, mechanically terrible at this game and allows me to focus on positioning and strategy which is where i outshine comparable players that are vastly superior players mechanically. this is why you'll consistenlty see me in perfect position to defend an incoming bomb and then hilariously crash into the base while the enemy hits. oh and also my tip top level trickster is just as good as my tip top level laser. it's just far less common (see: it's a way harder plane)

tl;dr: if laser didn't exist i'd be awful and would have to cry myself to sleep. plz keep as is.

[sunshineduck]

ta is imbalanced as hell in tbd. laser is the only thing keeping lambchopz from top 25 status, and do we really want him there????

[Ribilla]

I think a warp nerf might help. Perhaps if it was nerfed hard on laser (-30% damage), moderately on TA (-20%), and hardly at all on Trick (-5%, if at all?). Trick is needs the warp damage to shotwarp, but I feel TA should have reduced damage potential due to its power for running. On laser it would be almost impossible to one-shot whales or bips, which would change the dynamics of the plane significantly.

[sunshineduck]

how can you go from saying laser is balanced to suggesting a 30% warp nerf? lol

[classicallad]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

how can you go from saying laser is balanced to suggesting a 30% warp nerf? lol

edit: ill add something meanigful later

[Smushface]

Lazer is fine in current meta game (tbd). Won't even mention ball because the number of thermos, loopies, and other randas make lazer useless by default.

TA / Trick / HC all counter lazer to some extent, TA more so than the others. And it's also worth mentioning that most of the good tricksters aren't active anymore (sinstar, you're not in this category b/c ur bad).

If TA got nerfed then lazer could also be nerfed within reason. Remote is already pretty dominant, this would make it more so.

Ladder ranking is not indicative of balance. Top 10 (hell, top 25) is always filled with the people who can carry bad teams.

The topics been beaten to hell.

Now if you want to talk about the advantage euro lazers have over US lazer, than we can get some hrm huh hah up in dis.

[sunshineduck]

which would you rather have on your team, 2 lasers or a ta and an explo? if you take the lasers, you haven't been watching enough of ingbo and myself try to beat donk and x mediocre whale. :\

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by Smushface

TA / Trick / HC all counter lazer to some extent

As an HC user I have always been curious as to how exactly HC is a counter to Laser, if anyone would care to elaborate. I have seen it said so many times but never seen an explanation why.

[Smushface]

Lazer is all about positioning and good players won't give lazer the positioning advantage. For example, look at games when Mat absolutely controls lazers with superior positioning even when lazer is supposed to counter explo.

HC's can do the same thing. HC spam the corners that lazers want to go around + flex makes sure the HC can turn around fast enough to keep positioning.

In a head-to-head, HC can burst just as fast as a lazer can in close range and the height of the biplane makes it a pretty small target for the lazer to stay on.

edit: I should also say HC is the weakest counter of those 3, but I'd still say it's the 3rd hardest plane to beat.

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by Beagle

As an HC user I have always been curious as to how exactly HC is a counter to Laser, if anyone would care to elaborate. I have seen it said so many times but never seen an explanation why.

depends on positioning. at a distance HC destroys laser, and at close range the shot+D combo is pretty much equivalent to the laser+warp. assuming equivalent level of play, competent HC vs competent laser should show a meaningful edge to HC in 1 on 1 kill or be killed matchups. it's not a counter in the traditional sense, since HC in defense vs bomb running laser is a different situation entirely.

[sunshineduck]

also i tend to feel that mat relies more on his insane mechanical ability and timing of when/where to place/explode his mines in 1v1 matchups than his positioning. he's so good that even if he's dramatically out of position he can still singlehandedly defend an incoming push. goose and woken are more reliant on positioning to defend against laser and i feel are in position to defend with their plane and presence rather than strictly their missiles and mines.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by Beagle

As an HC user I have always been curious as to how exactly HC is a counter to Laser, if anyone would care to elaborate. I have seen it said so many times but never seen an explanation why.

It's essentially a two shot kill, since you just secondary a little once you get close. Obviously HC has the range advantage, so as long as the laser doesn't catch you from a bad angle (whoever has the positional advantage wins pretty much regardless of plane, unless you play TA) you can kill them before they kill you. Clearly you already know this, but just watch vipr play ladder a little.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

how can you go from saying laser is balanced to suggesting a 30% warp nerf? lol

I feel laser is fairly well balanced, but if the rest of the community doesn't then I think that a warp nerf would address their issues.

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

I feel laser is fairly well balanced, but if the rest of the community doesn't then I think that a warp nerf would address their issues.

Nerf warp for TBD if needed. Warp damage is fine in Ball.

[Smushface]

Solution: lazer ping capped at 100ms.

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

I feel laser is fairly well balanced, but if the rest of the community doesn't then I think that a warp nerf would address their issues.

if you think laser is balanced why would you be ok with a nerf just to appease whine? nerfing a balanced plane would imply that it then becomes imbalanced, which isn't something you want to achieve just to appease a whiny community.

[Evan20000]

I've always felt that laser, while mind numbingly easy to use, is not OP. However, feel free to disregard this if laser has changed since I have played.

[leoman]

As I mainly play in pubs, don't know if I'm allowed to contribute to the balance discussion. But I find laser immunity to shields mildly disturbing as well as the fact that one slight mistake in positioning against laser player means you are dead, there is almost no possibility to run away.

Or I'm just bad.

[Hollywood]

Nerf the warp. End of Story.

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by leoman

As I mainly play in pubs, don't know if I'm allowed to contribute to the balance discussion. But I find laser immunity to shields mildly disturbing as well as the fact that one slight mistake in positioning against laser player means you are dead, there is almost no possibility to run away.

Or I'm just bad.

laser's hardly immune to shields, it just doesn't reflect back towards the laser user, which would be rather silly. and there plenty of other planes that can take advantage of tiny mistakes just as easily (remote, HC, and emp are particularly unforgiving), they are just significantly harder to play at a high level. laser is easy, not overpowered.

[leoman]

How easy should it be to play certain plane that it would be considered overpowered?

If you need to dedicate much fewer hours to play laser competitively than any other plane or perk does not that make laser both easy and op?

I'm not really getting what you mean by 'easy' and 'op' to be honest.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

if you think laser is balanced why would you be ok with a nerf just to appease whine? nerfing a balanced plane would imply that it then becomes imbalanced, which isn't something you want to achieve just to appease a whiny community.

Because I am not arrogant enough to think that I am right about everything. I am willing to argue my corner and present logical arguments, but if they entirety of the community is calling for a laser nerf and I am the only one opposing, then I am willing to defer.

Fortunately this doesn't seem to be the case. I agree it is much easier to be half decent with laser compared to other planes, if only because you can correct mid-fire.

@Leo: Something is easy if it is quick to learn to play and can be done so with less skill. Something is OP if, at a given level of play it is significantly more powerful than other planes. If you took the best laser and put them against the best whale, then the match would still not be a forgone conclusion, despite the laser being a fairly hard counter to whale.

[Duck Duck Pwn]

“Hi, I’m some scrubby whale on FRO, and I dislike mirandas.”

to note, i feel as though to argue against lasers, it is important to take into consideration mirandas as a whole. i know that some of these arguments are not unique to lasers, but i feel as though pointing out benefits which lasers have via being a miranda are important.

let me edit the first list for you a bit

# 1 donk – TA – randa
# 2 [TBD]Aya[PRO] – Trickster – randa
# 3 [fLb] Ingbo – TA – randa
# 4 Hollywood. – Bomber
# 5 ingbo – Laser – randa
# 6 Nade – Bomber
# 7 ///tVo.number3[qq] – Laser – randa
# 8 EqUIVOqUE – Laser – randa
# 9 [fLb]ViPR - HC
# 10 [qq] {ball}'n – TA – randa
# 11 {r87}Radium - Acid
# 12 PATATE – Remote/Trickster
# 13 tm!c|IL - TA – randa
# 14 EXAPOTAMUS – Laser – randa
# 15 Blue Smurf – Laser – randa
# 16 KLF.mssv - Recoiless
# 17 shmo55 – Laser – randa
# 18 [BBqq]trendy - Bomber
# 19 [FRO]GOOSE - Thermo
# 20 {SWN}Fartface - Laser/Remote – randa
# 21 mled - Bomber
# 22 Professor X - Remote
# 23 XX2 - HC
# 24 KLF.lemon – Trickster – randa
# 25 [FRO]RICINBEANS – Trickster – randa

Main plane:
14/25 Miranda
4/25 bomber
3/25 explodet
3/25 biplane
1/25 loopy

I have edited the above list to highlight something.

To note, of the 11 people who do not main Miranda, pata has played almost as many games with trickster as he has with remote (I believe the difference is around 10 games or so and I added it to be a legitimate secondary plane in the above list as such), synnik/radium mains laser for FRO, and X has only 4 less games with laser as he does remote, and Hollywood has a good laser that he has used relatively often in apl. Trendy has a laser as a good secondary plane, and mled plays everything well including laser. However, ignoring the last 2, other than at best being evidence of laser being “easy,” the above statistics show 14-18 people who regularly play Miranda and anywhere up to 20 which can play it well, 7-10 of which play laser and up to 12 which can (I do not include tricksters who feasibly could play laser in this, although that is a very valid point, too. i can almost assure you that your average trick can laser just fine). This would seem to indicate a definite problem in terms of plane balance.

To be fair, as mitigating circumstances, the vast majority of players in the top 25 of hours played in tbd do play Miranda.

Main plane:
13/25 Miranda
4/25 explodet
3/25 loopy
2/25 bomber
2/25 biplane
1/25 niro (bomber/randa have about the same hours played)

Of these, 8/13 Miranda mains in top 25 tbd hours are laser. As such, the case can be made that tbd players just happen to mostly be Mirandas, and hence they happen to consistently be near the top of ladder. Also, I have heard the argument that bomb running happens to be overstated in importance in tbd ladder rankings, as it has the most directly traceable impact on whether the game is won or lost. Due to the versatility and speed of the Miranda -- and hence laser -- it makes for an ideal bomb runner and will be rewarded for that in ladder rankings. As such, one could argue that randas, and consequently lasers, are just the best “ladder plane” in TBD. In addition, I think that most people would consider killing to be the next most important directly traceable statistic for doing well in tbd, something which players like rib, aya, and knipchip have shown that laser is very adept at. While it is debatable as to what killing is most important and whether kills garnered through “pushing” might be more useful in a game than someone whoring, the fact remains that many of the kills that so-called “whores” get are indeed important kills. Also, it is quite clear that due to the Miranda’s mobility, that Mirandas are best equipped to flanking and killing bomb runners from the side and whales to allow for pushes to happen, and laser happens to be (arbuably) the best perk suited to killing whales (flanking lights carrying the bomb is probably not in laser’s favor as compared to other Miranda perks).

I would argue that I think that some of the call for nerfing randas – and lasers – is probably somewhat overstated. The fact of the matter is that most people who play tbd play Miranda, which would influence people to scream bloody murder at seeing 3 lasers on an opposing team – which I know that I have done before. It’s really annoying. However, to argue that a nerf is not needed I think is also not true. It's simply too easy, and it's simply too good, and too hard to punish.

My first argument is specific to lasers, and then my second argument will be for Mirandas as a whole. There certainly is a bit of crossover between the two in terms of argumentation, but here goes:

First:

I’ll start with two empirical examples of the choice to play laser simply because of how good the plane is, rather than simple chance that “more people play laser.” For some players, they play Laser because Laser is (arguably) the best plane to play in tbd. For example, look at fartface: he used to almost exclusively use explodet, and upon largely switching to laser, he suddenly went from an above-average ladder ranking to top 25. While plane choice was certainly not the only factor that influenced that rise -- as plane versatility is rewarded in ladder much more than it is in league play – it certainly played a major role in his becoming better ranked. Secondly, look at elmoface. He almost exclusively plays loopy in ball. Given that, you would think that his loopy would transition into becoming a loopy in tbd, right? Wrong. He mains laser in tbd. While you can argue that laser is just so bad in ball, that he is forced to play ball with something other than it – which you could say for buffalosoldier/shmo/ex – is true in elmoface’s case, given his starting primarily as a ball player in ladder.

In addition, the ease of laser in TBD feels absolutely ridiculous. However, I’m not the best one to articulate this point, as I happen to think that for me to argue this point is pretty hypocritical, due to me not playing laser in ladder much. I’ll leave that to other people, but this argument certainly has been made before, and I feel inclined to believe it. However, I will articulate its ease from the perspective of both whale experience and from a statistical standpoint.

However, as a whale, I feel as though it takes near perfect positioning to be able to deal with a team with 2 lasers, and if a team has 3, then I become essentially useless that game. While I’m certainly not the best whale in TBD by any stretch of the imagination, and I used to be better, I feel justified in saying that it feels as though laser makes it too easy to punish small mistakes in a whale’s positioning, while with laser, there is hardly ever any situation in which a laser can be caught with its pants down. While part of that has to do with simply the nature of the two planes, and I don’t want that mechanic to change, I do feel as though the ease of allowing it to happen needs to change.

Also, the ability to flank from below, especially coming from a whale, is simply too well rewarded. While I feel as though that ability is good for the game, and that the mechanics of Miranda are fine, I feel as though, especially with laser, Mirandas are too well – and too easily – rewarded, and not punished for their positioning.

Finally, almost half of the top 25 plays laser semi-frequently. This is 1 red perk out of a possible 15. In a bit of a direct response to the idea of simply “lots of people play it,” lots of people like playing planes they are good at and/or are pressured to play because they are good at them. I think that while there is some inflation of people’s feelings about how many randas there are in top 25 due to the amount used, I think that much of its use derives from laser’s supposed ease.

Second:

Also, while people can argue that the above mentioned facts of speed and killing versatility are unjustly rewarded by ladder, I would argue that this just shows the core, most important factors defining TBD – not a flaw in ladder. Ladder does a good job of showing, in a vacuum, what a given player can do in relation to the teammates he is given. The only factor that ladder rewards that apl matches 100% reward less is versatility, because on a team, it’s much easier to specialize in one plane and be called on according to what your team needs, versus in ladder having to deal with whatever planes you get handed. In either case, Miranda is simply the best plane to choose. In apl, randas are the best due to TA being the best bomb runner undisputably, and laser being one of the best killers and probably the 2nd best bomb running plane -- due to being able to switch directions back and forth and wait for the right time to push in much easier than any other plane, as well as being the fastest plane. In ladder, Miranda is great because regardless of what kind of team composition you have, adding a Miranda of equal skill to whatever plane you would otherwise use will help it 99% of the time. There is no other plane – other than an arguable 4 whale + TA team, or KLF-style bombers + sky – which can have 4 in a set up and still wreck **** up. And it’s important to note that both of the above noted exceptions need 1 Miranda to make them effective. It just feels as though Miranda is too centralized in the current metagame, and that something needs to change about it.

As pointed out in the first post*, there may be more of a problem with TA than Laser, but I am not going into that at the moment, as that seems too far off-topic, since this is a thread about lasers, so including characteristics of mirandas which lasers lay claim to seems to be fair game and important to point out, but mechanics of other miranda perks seems a bit off-topic.

EDIT: Have to trim down my post for being more than 10k characters

[Duck Duck Pwn]

i have not talked much about the specific mechanics of laser, as i feel as though i am not the most qualified to do so. however, the above are my feelings on lasers, and mirandas in general. i also have not proposed a solution, as i have not thought enough about that, and do not feel as though i have a good enough solution in mind to present. i wish that anyone who actually takes the time to read this post recognizes the following:

1. I think that either laser or miranda as a whole need some sort of nerf
2. I think that most non-lasers and non-randas, including myself at times, have overstated how much of a nerf it needs
3. I do not at the current time present any solution to this "problem"
4. I do not talk about ball whatsoever, although I will point out that miranda once again has the most mains in the top 25 (although it is tied with loopy with 8 there)

i had started on a ball part of my post, but then got tired of it. i might post it later.

In conclusion, I feel as though there needs to be some sort of mechanism which more easily punishes mirandas, especially laser, as at the current time, they feel too "easy" from a statistical and from whale standpoint. While I cannot argue this position from any other standpoint due to my inexperience in any other planes barring my fair amount of experience in loopy, the above are what I have noted and what I feel about the current state of affairs, as well as provide reasons why my opinion may be mitigated. however, i feel as though I have done a reasonable enough job at showing, even with the mitigating factors certainly being present, that there is call for some sort of nerf to either mirandas as a whole, lasers in some capacity, or even some sort of differentiated nerf between how traits normally considered to be wholly "miranda" become differentiated depending on what red perk is used. Regardless of the change made, I feel as though some change is called for.

I welcome any and all criticism to the points I made, as well as counter-points, support from other perspectives, or any comments about what i may have said.

have a nice day.

[sunshineduck]

do we really want to nerf the top-flight miranda players because they play a plane that is easy? like it has been said, i feel like miranda is fairly well balanced in terms of best of the best vs best of the best, but is a much easier plane to pick up and play. i'd argue that thermo whale in ball is just as easy to pick up, it just cannot fill as many roles on a team as laser does. you are right, it is very good at multiple roles and i think that's why it's so easy - you can be completely worthless at one aspect of laser and still be a pretty good player. however, a singular laser user being good at running and good at flanking cannot be used for both within the same game effectively, which i feel is key. a laser that is running cannot be as good at flanking as if he wasn't running, and vice versa.

if you can think of a nerf that makes miranda harder to be good with but still just as useful at the highest level of play, i'm all ears. at the same time, i'd prefer to keep TA and laser/trick separate, as they are completely separate entities.

[Smushface]

I'm not going to go to deep into this, so just the bullet points.

1) Ladder top 25 is not the best indicator of balance. I personally think it's better to look at APL teams because that's when skill / teamwork are at their peak. Top 10 ladder status has always been about being able to carry bad players.

2) DDP, some of your facts are somewhat misleading. A lot of your lazer players excel because they multi-plane. Also, I think Fart was top 10 as remote for a long time last season so take that as you will. Maybe that was Ape. I dunno, they're the same person to me.

3) Balance is not done in a vaccuum. If you nerf lazer because of its effectiveness in TBD, than you definitely need to nerf TA (nerf TA anyways shiiiit) and probably nerf remote.

4) I agree with you that a general randa nerf is warranted and I don't think it should be damage based, it should be mobility based. I'm currently thinking that the best path would be a slight decrease (like 10% or less) in the warp distance.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by Smushface

I'm not going to go to deep into this, so just the bullet points.

1) Ladder top 25 is not the best indicator of balance. I personally think it's better to look at APL teams because that's when skill / teamwork are at their peak. Top 10 ladder status has always been about being able to carry bad players.

2) DDP, some of your facts are somewhat misleading. A lot of your lazer players excel because they multi-plane. Also, I think Fart was top 10 as remote for a long time last season so take that as you will. Maybe that was Ape. I dunno, they're the same person to me.

3) Balance is not done in a vaccuum. If you nerf lazer because of its effectiveness in TBD, than you definitely need to nerf TA (nerf TA anyways shiiiit) and probably nerf remote.

4) I agree with you that a general randa nerf is warranted and I don't think it should be damage based, it should be mobility based. I'm currently thinking that the best path would be a slight decrease (like 10% or less) in the warp distance.

Just wanna back Smush up here because I think he's right.

+1

[Duck Duck Pwn]

after some slight thought, perhaps a bit of a distance nerf on warping? in theory, it would make randas easier to punish for poor positioning, in that they are slower.

i think that nerfing damage, if it were to happen to all randas, would have to still do enough damage to shot warp. otherwise - especially in ball - loopies would no longer be obligated to use heavy armor. loopies could just use rubber hull to deal with thermos then, and i'm pretty sure we dont want to encourage that...

edit ninja'd

1. apl has 1-2 randas on a team as a requirement, and even 3+ is acceptable. i'm not sure how that isn't over-centralizing.

2. fart definitely was almost certainly not top 10 as whale. but i dont want to speak for him. i also think that that perception of ladder is largely incorrect, and that the whole idea of "carrying" is predicated on the idea of someone being good enough to do so.

3. balance is certainly not done in a vaccuum, but i already admitted that i didn't provide a solution. given that, while changes are not in a vaccuum, the way in which a change is implemented has a very important role in how other planes are effected. as such, me going into the effects on the metagame seems somewhat stupid, since i didn't know what to suggest. however, since a mobility nerf in dash distance has now been proposed, i will operate under the assumption of a dash nerf for the sake of my 2nd point

however, here are very general statements on nerfs, if only governed by general perception on what planes do and what they are bad against, etc.:

a. nerfs to laser alone - which i will assume constitutes damage nerf - means utility of trick and ta go up because they are just as mobile, but now relative to lasers do more damage. depending on the size of the nerf, it definitely buffs whales, but it's arguable as to what degree. Less lasers = less fear of flanking, but if the nerf is light enough on damage, it probably will have next to 0 direct effect, as the main problem whales have with lasers is less from damage than from a lack of an easy way to punish a lasers' position. However, since it would probably make some current laser users switch up planes, that in and of itself is a definite buff to whale. It also means a bip buff in that lasers often do the flanking of bomb runners that good bips do. it makes that skill much less wide-spread. It probably has the least effect on bombers, as the damage a laser would do to bombers would be lessened but most likely not enough to change that it is still flanked ok by lasers, but becomes more useful in there being less lasers around? it probably very slightly nerfs loopies, as they are mobile and more easily able to avoid being punished by lasers, as well as having the two secondaries which hurt lasers the most - one that hurts its mobility directly, and one which forces a choice between either mobility through a certain area or taking major damage to an already low hp plane. The lessening of the presence of that particular perk of mirandas most likely would mean less utility for loopies to directly deal with it.

b. nerfs to randas as a whole would seem to serve, in tbd, as a slight nerf to loopies in terms of countering some planes, but more utility - especially in the case of slowing randas down via less dash distance - in bomb running, whales get a buff in that lasers have a harder time of being in the right position but still get punished if well-flanked because the damage they do is the same, biplanes get a very slight buff in that the difference in laser flanking vs bip flanking is lessened as well as lowering the gap between bomb running (although this is much less of a concern due to the lack of bip runners for a very long time), and bombers probably are least effected but gain more utility in pushes and less fear of flanking.

i probably know least about the effects on bombers, if that wasn't clear.

4. mobility nerf seems to be the best way to do things from a theoretical perspective.

[nobodyhome]

Just wanted to poke in here and say that any discussion on changing the randa because of its possible overpoweredness in tbd should also take into account ball. Nerfing the warp distance would adversely affect the randa's ability to perform in ball, and judging from my own experiences and from a quick look at ball ladder's top players, randa is not really overpowered there (and especially not laser).

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

Just wanted to poke in here and say that any discussion on changing the randa because of its possible overpoweredness in tbd should also take into account ball. Nerfing the warp distance would adversely affect the randa's ability to perform in ball, and judging from my own experiences and from a quick look at ball ladder's top players, randa is not really overpowered there (and especially not laser).

I suppose that could be compensated by reducing the randa's movement penalty while carrying the ball accordingly.

I'm against a global randa nerf. Seems to be a bit much to hit the entire plane and not just laser (assuming that laser is the problem, which is still up for debate).

[Smushface]

Originally Posted by Evan20000

I suppose that could be compensated by reducing the randa's movement penalty while carrying the ball accordingly.

I'm against a global randa nerf. Seems to be a bit much to hit the entire plane and not just laser (assuming that laser is the problem, which is still up for debate).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcNGY...tailpage#t=10s

[sunshineduck]

can anyone put into words a reason as to why laser/trick is overpowered other than "i get my ass handed to me because of bad positioning a lot by players i think are inferior to me"?

[mled]

****ing NOOB its the randa problem not laser!

saying this forever nerf warp damage and emp and we r ****ing good 2 go

why emp is op? cuz it is

why randa is op? cuz its quicker then a loopy and does damage while catching up 2 ppl. thats its main problem not the damage output itself. I complain when ppl laser then warp to just finish u off which is bull****. I play loopy and they still catch up 2 me in ladder.

fun stat for u 50% of players who play in ladder play randa

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by Smushface

Solution: lazer ping capped at 100ms.

hello df / hc!!!

[Princess Squirtle]

I was actually thinking about why TA is supposedly OP. Part of it is the mechanic of the plane but since it's actually quite predictable, it's not that OP. What makes it really efficient is the double warp. Every best TAs play ultra because it allows to travel huge gaps combined with TA.
Since some people say the warp distance should be reduced, it goes along with what I had in mind: making the second jump with ultra going a shorter distance than the first jump. Imo, it should only be applied to TA, since it would nerf trickster with ultra too much and render it useless compare to turbo trickster. That way, TA would still be able to burst out from its position to benefit from an opening in the defense, but not as easily as it can atm ; based on my feeling that TA is more of a wait-and-go (including creating the opening) plane than trickster/lazer for running.

As for lazer, I do think it shouldn't be able to reach from that far. A shorter reach would obliged the player to pay more attention about its positioning and when he has to hit. It would make him more open when he attacks, especially against whale who could reach them with mines more easily. Now, I see at least two problems with that that could happen: randa would be more visible because he would have to get closer before hitting, hence being more predictable ; randa would jump before lazering as to benefit from the gap to hide and hit, but then would make less damage. It would make the plane harder to play, and might actually make it way too less efficient.

[sunshineduck]

laser length nerf would break laser/remote interaction completely.