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#41
10-04-2011, 11:22 PM
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Just the fact that laser/remote interaction is so crucial to the balance of a tbd game shows that there's something amiss.
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#42
10-04-2011, 11:23 PM
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Even a small distance nerf on laser would make a huge huge difference. If asked for advice I always tell laser players to engage from as large a distance as possible. Laser is very bad short range (unless your enemy flies in a straight line) because it's almost impossible to keep the laser on your enemy for any appreciable amount of time. Trick, TA and HC are all much better close range planes. Laser needs to stay a mid-short range plane unless there is a massive overhaul done on it.
You can see this effect by how much ping effects laser. The very small distance increase apparently given by 150 ping has big implications. I don't tend to complain about players with sub 200ping though, because they are hitting you on their screen and if they had a lower ping, they would simply have adjusted accordingly and would still be hitting you. Anything above 200 and the chances are that you would have made a different evasive manoeuvre and the situation would have turned out differently. Spikes are still an issue, but they are for every plane.
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#43
10-04-2011, 11:24 PM
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I must also point out that the rise of laser's prominence is also probably a major contributer to the rise of HC (ok, maybe just vipr and aya) recently, as HC is the fastest laser killer in the game.
Another thing I have to say is to note how plane variety in tbd has decreased drastically in the recent months. Look over this discussion and see how often TA, laser, HC, and remote is discussed. Whatever happened to loopies? And bombers? (for once, biplanes are not the plane to complain about). Last edited by nobodyhome; 10-04-2011 at 11:26 PM.
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#44
10-04-2011, 11:34 PM
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I have to say that I think laser dominance has only occurred since I started playing ladder, which was some time around the start of this year. The other reason why we see a lot of randa players in the top 25, which I don't think anyone has pointed out, is that all the randa variants are useful and used in ladder. This means randas stack much better than other planes, so ladder can accomodate a much greater number of 'top' randa players before the class gets overplayed and people are forced to switch.
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#45
10-04-2011, 11:49 PM
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#46
10-05-2011, 12:05 AM
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it's the nature of the game. if all the planes were good at filling all the roles a team could use, would this game still be fun?
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#47
10-05-2011, 12:09 AM
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let me put it this way: what are you trying to accomplish by nerfing laser? creating more plane variety? just dying less when you're out of position? and once you explain to me what it is you want out of a laser nerf, how badly do you think laser should be nerfed to accomplish that goal? a fix similar to the biplane/emp resistance buff won't change a thing in terms of making miranda harder to play, and will only impact mirandas at the tippy top level of play imo.
which leads me to this question: do you think laser is op at the APL level of play, or just for ladder? if it's the latter (hehe, latter ladder) then do you think the game should be balanced towards APL or towards general every day ladder play?
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#48
10-05-2011, 12:17 AM
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By shortening the reach of laser, I don't mean half its reach nor a quarter. Just a tiny bit that would make it a bit more open so people can actually react against it. If laser is such a killer, it's because people usually don't have time to react because of it's hide-and-hit pace. And also because you can still kill the plane even if you miss your aim at first. Like you said, Rib, shortening its reach would make it harder at short range, but not impossible. It would improve the skills required to be efficient at. Being good with laser atm is easy, because you don't need that much skills to kill. Being great with it requires something more: positioning, feeling of the flow of tbd, etc. But it's not inherent to the plane, it's inherent to the mode and hence shouldn't be taken into consideration; because it is that that make the difference between great players and the others, but it is a requirement for every planes.
That said, for other planes, you actually need a lot of skills to coordinate the perks of the plane and your positioning. Just look at remote and how it requires so much awareness in positioning/maneuvring but also on timing, not counting how much adjustment you need to add with/against lag. Look at the bomber now, if you miss one nade, you won't kill a full hp plane, you have to wait a bit before hitting again. And it's easy to miss. Moreover, if you don't pay much attention to your nades and your energy rate, you won't be efficient at all (thanks mled, btw). With lazer, you don't have that problem. You see clearly when you're missing and you can adjust fast and still be able to kill because of its diffuse nature (or you can just run away). It's all about knowing when to hit and it doesn't need much. Laser is not OP because its warp or its shiny thingy do a lot of damage, it's because you can hardly miss and even if you do, you can still adjust and kill on time. Combined with heavy dps, you have an OP plane. Where biplane compensate its high dps with an aiming skill, laser doesn't. Make laser harder to play, and people will play other planes because they won't all be able to feel the plane. If it can increase the amount of remote/loopy in ladder, so be it. Balanced team composition is part of a balanced game. (NB: It is not OP in ball because damages are diffuse, but if you shorten the reach, it won't change anything as ball is a cluster**** anyway so you can't really play hide-and-hit like in tbd). Edit (posted before seeing ssd's answer): APL games have not use that much lasers until recently. It doesn't mean it is not OP, it just means no team really tried. Seeing how qq is doing with its 2 lazers composition, I tend to think that it's not going against my point though nor could I strongly say it proves it too. I personally think laser is OP, even for APL, but not by much, it's not a big problem that makes the game insanely unbalanced, there's still something wrong with it though, imho. Last edited by Princess Squirtle; 10-05-2011 at 12:59 AM.
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#50
10-05-2011, 01:23 AM
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do not nerf laser without nerfing anchor. every season so far of ladder in tbd weve had like 2 or 3 / top 5 being anchors. donk, balln, sky (when hes not perma banned) are just season after season ripping up the top part of tbd ladder....
edit: this being said im definately down for a nerf if its done on both types. Last edited by Ingbo; 10-05-2011 at 01:27 AM.
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#51
10-05-2011, 01:43 AM
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Hi this thread has a lot of words but I saw my name somewhere so I decided to post
Just wanted to make it clear that from my perspective, TA is NOT op. I don't think anyone can argue that people like donk, sky and balln have devoted time to mastering the plane and it's not something that you can do that well with without having a large amount of skill and experience. Noobs who try to play TA don't get good rankings, so although it looks like TA is OP, I think it has more to do with experience. That being said, I think laser is a bit more OP... new players that play laser very quickly get good enough for good rankings, and it's harder to go wrong with it. Overall, I think that rand a could take a nerf to warping or maybe laser length, but we don't need a TA-specific nerf.
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#52
10-05-2011, 01:48 AM
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so when every respected player playing ta is top 5-10 in ladder u dont see a problem? really...? note that this isnt the case with laser either btw. trying to argue that things are op or not depending on what skill lvl ppl have, is just silly. how can u know what "objective" skill lvl players like donk etc have? i agree theyre all really good players but saying that thats a reason in itself to not consider nerfing a plane is silly. which top laser isnt a skilled player?
'new players that play laser very quickly get good enough for good rankings' like? Last edited by Ingbo; 10-05-2011 at 01:59 AM.
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#53
10-05-2011, 01:56 AM
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Thought experiment: Take every single red perk. Assume that each plane has a full energy bar and a bomb. Plot every possible point where each plane could be in 3 seconds. I don't have the math or numbers on this but everyone should agree that TA has by far the biggest range AND sheer number of points on this graph. Also, this demonstration doesn't take into account the timeline over the three seconds. The speed at which TA can do this also plays a huge role in all this but the argument is grounded in what I said above.
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#54
10-05-2011, 01:58 AM
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Finally someone decided to make a thread about this. laser and miranda in general is getting out of hand. teams should not be able to win games easily with 4-5 randas. It's rediculous. As a whale, i find it impossible to defend against such setups and i think that I am pretty good at whale. (im also really fat
 ). Pretty much every whale in the game would say laser is OP. Yeah you could say well its becuase laser is supposed to counter whale but whale should at least have a fighting chance. We really have no chance to 1v1 a laser.A perfect example of laser's insane power. Ladder season 1 (or 2 I dont really remember) Fartface. Now im sorry if im picking on you fart, but the act that he never played laser in like his entire altitude career, then decides to just play it in ladder and ends up in the top 5 is crazy to me. It screams overpowered. It has taken me a year at least to be able to consistently stay in the top 25 with a whale, not taking in the fact that I suck, but cant we just make like a week dedicated to trying to fix laser by trying diferent nerfs to it. TBH i dont think anyone can think of one perfect nerf for it. I know I cant. But yeah just putting up some suggestions for you guys. nerf laser
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#55
10-05-2011, 02:01 AM
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 Loopy is underpowered, i become from a "good" player to a noob in 1 year comom, i know i cant move my hands properly but who cares. btw, i dont think lazor is OP, but TA for TBD its a joke. Last edited by Flight 666; 10-05-2011 at 02:08 AM.
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#56
10-05-2011, 02:16 AM
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OK so I'm a total amateur who spends his days crashing into things in the pubs but from down this end of the scale I'd say I think lasers need adjusting.
I pretty much purely play recoilless because it's pretty easy and the most fun plane to fly... But the downside to this is that you can't help but get laser penis envy. Ok they have less health but while I'm zooming around spaffing my one second of planelength range up the wall they swagger in with their eternal 3 mile long death rays. To rub it in even more, theirs is a bloody bright thick line so that even if they miss it's nice and easy for them to adjust. Oh, and they can turn 180 in an instant and catch up with a few of their jumps - so are rediculously unforgiving to those of us naive enough to approach from 1.6 degrees too far to the left and/or born without coordination. I'm not just whinging because they kill me lots (all plane types kill me lots) but there are certain situations (i.e. TBD maps with choke points you can't bypass easily) where 2 lasers are nigh on impossible to shift without suffering a bad case of multiple death. Are they unplayable? No, but their weak point is a lot less obvious than any other setup. I can only speak for TBD btw because who in their right mind plays ball Gaviero
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#57
10-05-2011, 02:21 AM
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The reason why I don't think TA is OP is that it takes a long time to learn, and a longer time and hard work to master. Sure, maybe it has a higher skill ceiling than others, but don't people who devote their time to learning it deserve to be one of the best? A pro can make any plane OP and TA is what people think of because a few of the best players use it, but IMO that doesn't make it OP. Like I said, I'd be fine with nerfing randa as a whole, and I think the best way to do this would be to decrease speed or warp length. I would be more than happy to be able to return to whale as an equally viable plane to play in ladder. i just don't want a nerf to be targeted only at TA's - if it affects randa as a whole, I'm cool with dat
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#58
10-05-2011, 02:33 AM
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so what makes u think that this wouldnt be the case for trickster or anchor? have u tried playing as much with those planes in ladder as u have with laser? fwiw both donks and ballns rise to top of ladder was insanely fast too when they came around with anchor (Balln used to laser before he started to anchor in tbd).
how about overall usage of various planes as a factor to ur success in season 1, maybe laser was an underused plane there and u therefore could fill important parts in teams with it. dont see u top 5 any of the following seasons with laser. how long it takes to learn a plane is not relevant to whether its op or not fyi. just cause mechanics are tougher on one plane doesnt mean that it isnt op. like smush said if u want to decide if a plane is op or not u have to translate it into maths where u can compare it to other planes. in addition to what smush said about it being the best bomb runner lets not forget that its ALSO the best plane 1v1 in real game scenarios (ie id say trickster is probably better 1v1 if ur not allowed to use powerups but since this isnt a realistic scenario for competative play lets just overlook that). If u cant argue against that (which i assume ur not going to try) how can u state its not op just cause it takes more time to learn? its like saying that protoss wasnt underpowered in brood war cause it was the easiest race to not be a complete bum with. yet in that game we never had protosses being even close to as represented as terrans or zergs in the top 20 of the world even tho for lowlvl gaming they were probably more represented in the top than the other races given that they were an easier race to, again, not suck at. If were going to figure out if something is OP or not tho like smush said we have to assume that its played at a high level (paraphrasing look at it mathematically). If we cant assume that we cant really have a meaningful discussion about op. again im not saying that laser isnt overpowered because i think it is. i think randa in general is. all im saying is that ur reasoning for anchor NOT being overpowered is just silly. balln was mediocre as a good player at laser having a rating at low 2000's (which is were ull typically find a lot of the decent good players) he switches to anchor hes top 3 of tbd in a matter of a month at a 2500-2700ish rating. Last edited by Ingbo; 10-05-2011 at 03:42 AM. Reason: realized i already responded to what i deleted, its late.
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#59
10-05-2011, 02:40 AM
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hm..such a tricky thing to say..
I will admit as being a pretty good explo user, laser/ta is about..oh i'd say..35%success of victory in the battlefield 1v1ing. at best i kill them with me. Most of the time, I prepare for the laser then any plane. When it comes to items, I save it just for them <3. Though the shield doesnt reflect the laser damage, it saves me time enough for two mines with a spin for a kill. One thing I gotta say tho is I believe personally that the best counters to laser/ta is acid. What I think shd happen is maybe some sort of slight buff for acid seeing that it isnt used much in either tbd/ball. if acid were slightly more deadly, could be effective in ball, causing people to maneuver around them, and in tbd they can become great flankers. Even in the videos of Sammich vs. Whatever other team that tyr made, he clearly pointed out Acid's effectiveness on TA's and I strongly believe that it may just work on laser..Imagine being a laser always being on ur toes not to get hit by an acid or something. Could put more of an edge on the laser players and skills in using those warps for dodging rather then as a method of killing could come into effect. When it comes down to an explodet vs a laser I do feel like..welp..gg's but ill do my best, however, its just one of those things..just like how an emp messes with a bip n so forth. I guess im trying to say, maybe a weaker plane could come into alti more buffed to help debuff the randas. I dunno?
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#60
10-05-2011, 02:45 AM
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Both acid and EMP are excellent counters to laser, the lack of use of loopies in TBD may have contributed to the rise of randa. In a 1 v 2 situation I can often dart in, killing one, then warp away. However, if one of those is a loopy I will almost always die. The problem is that, currently, I almost always kill the loopy 1 v 1, even though it often ends in mutual destruction.
To play loopy well in TBD it requires you to play well with your team and aid them by spamming your secondary, this is fine in APL, because you know your team and how they play, but being chucked into a random team in ladder means that chemistry is much harder to come-by. It can work though, check Radium's rating.
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#61
10-05-2011, 03:26 AM
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It does suck getting owned by a lazer in 0.5 seconds as a whale, but perhaps whales in general need to evolve their game as a whole before advocating nerfs? I mean for pretty much 1.3 years now, all whales in competitive altitude use flexi as their green perk. Perhaps some experimenting with heavy armor to lessen the damage from a lazer could be the solution to this predicament. THE TIME FOR EVOLUTION IS NOW!! WHOS WITH ME?
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#62
10-05-2011, 04:04 AM
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I've actually tried this casually before, the only problem is that you can't turn around well enough to do a shot-mine combo... so it lets you survive longer but its harder to counter other planes
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#63
10-05-2011, 04:17 AM
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Since Mikesol doesn't really take Alti too seriously anymore, maybe you can convince him to learn dumb bombs / rubber / reverse and we'll see if he can break into ladder top 10. Think this idea is stupid? Your logic says this is possible.
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#65
10-05-2011, 04:26 AM
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:< Quote:
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#68
10-05-2011, 04:55 AM
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#69
10-05-2011, 05:07 AM
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#70
10-05-2011, 11:07 AM
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#73
10-05-2011, 10:33 PM
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If you fix cost to increase it all randas are just going to energy manage better and are still going to have an insane edge as far as getting away / tricking opponents by speed and movability. If you decrease the actual lenght of it tho a lot of this edge is going to be lost for every type of randa. I hear what nobo is saying about randa probably not needing a nerf in ball but honestly in tbd ladder at this point its just lame to have like mled says 50% (im not sure about the actual number but id guess around 35-40%) of every player being randa. its gotten really old imo, same for the leagues.
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#74
10-05-2011, 10:33 PM
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In my opinion, all that is needed to balance randas, in general, is to make the warp hit-box smaller, and reduce the damage a bit. Right now, double warps are way too strong in both game-modes. Last edited by shrode; 10-05-2011 at 10:37 PM.
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#75
10-05-2011, 10:58 PM
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Actually, since there are only two pages so far in this forum, there is hardly enough material here to write a short story much less a book. #Ialwayshavetoberight snarfsnarf Last edited by Smushface; 10-05-2011 at 11:13 PM.
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#76
10-05-2011, 11:48 PM
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#77
10-06-2011, 02:21 AM
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my 12k words begs to differ
i have at least another 15k in me on laser but i'm pretty sure no one wants that
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#78
10-06-2011, 02:37 AM
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Just gonna say I don't mainly play Trickster, it's just a TA counter plane.
Plays everything - Edit plz. You could just make Warp have a cooldown or something, I dunno. Last edited by Shiro; 10-06-2011 at 02:43 AM.
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#79
10-06-2011, 03:47 AM
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Last edited by Ingbo; 10-06-2011 at 04:01 AM.
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Linear Mode
