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#81
10-06-2011, 05:10 AM
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yeah, it's mostly a tbd thing
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#83
10-06-2011, 02:43 PM
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#84
10-06-2011, 04:41 PM
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And want to see evans essay
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#85
10-06-2011, 05:58 PM
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Donk's two cents
How often does spectator chat and forum debate discuss plane imbalance rather than strategy?
Very frequently, I have witnessed. But that is the problem. Games/competition are about adapting and manipulating to existing conditions in order to win, not constantly changing the games and their rules. We should be elevating the level of gameplay rather than tearing the meta back to square one.
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#86
10-06-2011, 06:48 PM
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I agree. Competition is about adapting and manipulating conditions. No one who has actually said something constructive in this conversation would disagree with that statement. Since all you've gotten out of the recent discussion is "less qq more pew pew" let me put this in basic and simple terms. I know winter is coming and maybe the cold has addled your reading comprehension so I'll try to use small words. 1) The sentences above are implying that you're stupid. An idiot. A simpleton. Someone should bring you flowers and call you Algernon. I wouldn't normally resort to petty name-calling but considering your extreme language in all this, I'm actually okay with it. 2) Rules and balance change constantly. Sports amend / change / add rules. Video games get patched. Hell, even competitive chess get rule changes on occasion (albeit, not to the actual game but how the competition itself is done). This isn't an attempt to bring the game down to "square one" or diminish the level of gameplay. It's to correct an apparent imbalance or gap. 3) Balance is complex. It's not a simple A-->B. A small tweak here and you could change the entire system in ways that you don't predict. Game balance is dependent on two factors. 1) Developer based changes in how the game mechanically works and 2) Player based changes in how the meta game works. 3a) This entire conversation started out in lazer play. In a vacuum, lazer is overpowered. In the tbd meta-game, lazer comes out relatively balanced. Altitude TBD has come down to 6 red perks: EMP, lazer, TA, HC, flak, and remote. Depending on who you are or what you think, you might add suppressor or thermo to that list. Honestly as far as game developing goes, a 40-50% success rate with class + spec combos is actually pretty good. 3b) In any video game with a class / perk / race based system, imbalances always arise. Super Smash Brothers Brawl just banned Metaknight from competitive play. This wasn't random whining, this was a deliberate and carefully considered decision by the best of the best to increase competition by deleting a character. Wow i know right, what noobs. They're just trying to bring the metagame back to square 1. <--(this is called sarcasm. dictionary.com if you don't know what that means) See, luckily we have a pair of handsome developers who can alter the game for us so we don't have to resort to such extreme measures. Which is why we have conversations like this. The way you dismiss everyone in this thread, which includes a ton of big altitude names, is a joke. 4) For some reason, you still don't think TA is too strong even after over a year of empirical evidence and paragraphs upon paragraphs of theory. Which brings me back to point 1. Actually, that's a good idea. Read this post a couple of times. Sentence my sentence. Try to comprehend. Then sleep on it. Then maybe you can write out a thoughtful response. Then send it to Mikesol for feedback. Then depending on what he says, maybe, just maybe, you can post it. For Gryffindor.
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#88
10-06-2011, 07:54 PM
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It's been a while since I felt anything close to qualified to talk about specifics of balancing in this game, but I think the biggest issue in general is what you are balancing for.
There's so many different modes and levels of play that balancing for all of them just seems like an unreasonable goal. Like many of the major posters on these forums, I'd love to see balance focused around 5v5 TBD at the APL level, but that would be different from balancing even around the relatively similar 5v5 TBD ladder. Even within 5v5 TBD APL level, there are differing goals you can have concerning balance. Do you try to balance so that every perk has a viable place/role? Do you try to balance so many kinds of plane compositions can work, depending on strategy? Or do you just balance so the games are fun, requiring high skill/teamplay/tactics even if the teams are restricted to a small subset of perks? Meanwhile, judging from posts the devs have made, the overall focus of the game is more toward the casual gamer, and more focused on ball mode. I'm not trying to discourage people from hoping for balance in other game modes, but it's good to keep perspective. No matter what mode or skill level the devs focus balance on, there's no doubt that they'll try to help with balance for everyone, so it's still helpful to give them our insights and ideas for balance. Personally, I haven't played or even watched an APL game in like a year? A year and a half? And since season 2 of ladder I've played only recoilless no matter what everyone else is playing (to the great delight of my teammates). So I'm not gonna give any specific complaints or recommendations. Except that lazer is ez-mode. Last edited by GGQ; 10-06-2011 at 08:10 PM.
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#89
10-07-2011, 02:07 AM
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#90
10-07-2011, 12:13 PM
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Laser: This is by far the most superior killing plane in this game. What makes it even more ridiculous is the warp damage and the AOE damage of the warp.
You face a laser 1v1, it's either a kamikaze mission or you end up trying to escape it with no success and why is that? the WARP of course. It's ridiculous how hard you have to struggle to escape, the laser cuts through walls so don't even think about hiding behind obstacles. Anyone ever thought why new players get so good at laser so fast? Cause it's easy to learn and it can kill anything pretty fast. With that being said, you could leave the laser beam as it is, but when it comes to the warp damage and it's AOE, that's where the bigger problems start. TA: Donk has taken this to a whole other level, props. I don't really have a problem with TA and it should be left as it is. I focus on trying to not get fooled by the TA as all of us do. People need to understand you can't just fly straight at it spamming missiles or whatever, you need to learn it's patterns and read it's next moves, always try and be 1 step ahead. It's not as easy as it sounds but that is the only way. all in all, nerf the laser's warp and AOE damage, leave the TA as it is.
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#91
10-07-2011, 01:01 PM
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This looks like a very good thread and I'll read it carefully before any balance changes are made. From a quick glance over the suggestions my first instinct would be to try:
A) Reduce warp damage-check hit-box (all perks). The current warp hit-box is unnecessarily generous and defies intuitive expectations (the damage region exceeds the logical graphical bounds of the warping plane) which rewards sloppy play (alternatively, for pilots who've studied and mastered the "slop" region, allows warp-damaging from safer distances and makes lining up double-warps easier). B) There are a number of very specific levers that can be pulled to manipulate laser's kill potential. Energy regeneration can be reduced while the laser is active (reducing the ability to follow up with warps), rate of damage can be reduced (e.g. the beam lasts longer but does the same total damage), charge time can be increased, and of course beam length and total damage per beam can be decreased. I'd lean towards reducing the rate of damage as this accentuates the unique element of the laser perk, demanding greater target commitment (exposing the Miranda to countermeasures) and more careful engagement trajectories (need to make sure enough damage is dealt before warping through to finish off a target). C) It's possible that a VERY slight nerf to warp damage (to modify a few critical 1-shot break points) is appropriate, but A+B might do the trick.
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#92
10-07-2011, 02:03 PM
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#93
10-07-2011, 02:37 PM
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I would prefer option B because I don't think the other 2 randa perks should be punished (well, if TA/Trick is a problem then lets make another thread and discuss it) because of what laser does.
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#94
10-07-2011, 02:39 PM
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Ta is a problem.... Ta frequently hits from underneath the base being vs 3 to 4 ppl on d alone.... Thats retardedly op in tbd no other plane can even get close to that. if lights starts circling down under base to attack it the ta anchor double warps and most likely hits ur base cause the lights left position to block the edges of the base. So if u approach it rapidly it will just anchor warp away which makes it even more op cause of its ability to stall / stale (not sure which word is best) out entire teams while its waiting for backups at enemies base (for team to respawn basically) making them unable to approach it like the could other randa runners being under the base cause of its ability to close to instantly having left everyone that approaches it under the base to being on top of the base hitting bomb.
Classical roids scenario for instance: 2 bombers 2 lights on top of base defending ta incoming and gets under base and starts going to far side of the base. 2 planes can either defend each side being stalled out or they (which will most likely happen) go towards the side which the ta is moving. Ta then anchors and warp warp for easy easy hit vs 4 players. Another alternative here is that the planes on top of the base are aware of this problem (which also happens frequently) what happens then is what i described in the earlier paragraph. Ta has now stalled out everyone on d and can approach / continue with its run whenever it chooses to or just wait til he gets explos or bombers that can spam away ppl. Theres no other runner in the game that can put this much positional pressure on a team without even breaking a sweat. There are also boosting things ta can do like go down anchor up to get initial boost (behind a cliff for instance) then double warp over a 2nd cliff (cave for instance mid cliffs approaching enemies base) what this effectively does again is that ta just puts so much positional pressure on enemy teams and are soooooooo strong 1v1 that if u want to start a push and u have a ta doing this on cave in mid as u move in, ur pretty much forced to turn back with 2-3 planes to make sure ta doesnt hit alone. Since ta is so strong in 1v1 situations leaving a lone player to defend against it usually just ends up with the ta hitting ur base so i guess what my biggest problem with ta is at this point is its easy ways (hard plane to play ik w/e... theory is super easy behind this tho) to just completely stall out entire teams getting them into situations where it can play SUPER agressively without having anything to lose given how easy it can get away whereas the other team is playing in a spot where they can lose a bomb hit within 1-3 secs. To sum it up: Ta is op because it can put too much situational / positional pressure on opposing teams (without even being in an agressive position on the map to begin due to its amazing speed and allusiveness) compared to other bomb runners in tbd yet being as good or even better at killing than other runners. So as far as im concerned nerf laser, great, its definately called for. But make sure that u dont leave ta untouched and plz for everyone that doesnt think it needs a nerf plz read this and reply to the the problems i see with it. Last edited by Ingbo; 10-07-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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#95
10-07-2011, 02:41 PM
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Okay, lets operate under the assumption that it is, for arguments sake. Trick still gets nerfed for it. There are also other more creative ways to nerf TA that don't affect laser/trick at all.
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#96
10-07-2011, 02:45 PM
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Maybe the devs would like to hear your ideas Sin?
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#98
10-07-2011, 03:56 PM
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#99
10-07-2011, 04:08 PM
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Alright, here's what I think about TA. If you guys decide that TA needs a nerf (I get the feeling that there's already a consensus, but I don't feel qualified to make any final statements given that I haven't actually played the game seriously in god knows how long...), then I propose implementing diminishing returns on your momentum when you anchor. For instance, when you use the anchor and have a momentum of X, you will anchor with a momentum of X-Y%. This lets the anchor be used tactically to get behind cover (as it was intended), but not as a universal "panic button" that it was during my time playing. If you are forced to anchor+warp to get back to top speed, I think that removes enough of the anchor's otherwise nearly endless options that it used to have while still leaving it with enough choices as to keep it a powerful runner/carrier without completely obsoleting other options.
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#100
10-07-2011, 04:32 PM
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I'd prefer to see the length of hit box actually increased but make it thinner. Also make it longer lasting but keep the toal damage the same as you said. This would increse the aiming skill required and give planes more chance to wriggle out of it and increasing the possibility of surviving the following warp. Additionally it'd expose the randa to danger for slightly longer. A slight reduction in energy regeneration would also be ideal to reduce multiple warps. IMO one shot per engagement is fine - if it misses the other player is still pretty crippled from the laser anyway and randas are slippery eels so a skilled player will be able to maneuver for another pass or to sneak off if there is too much heat. This will mean that it'll still be a killing machine in the hands of a pro but will mean players have to use a little more judgement as to when it's worth exposing themselves to the risk. As it stands any attacking laser seems to be guarenteed at least one kill so with just a little skill you'll be racking up the health drops and bars
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#101
10-07-2011, 04:35 PM
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A laser with a charged shot is already one of the slowest planes in the game, reducing the energy regen would make a big difference. There is a reason why almost no lasers use UC, it's because they need turbo to function.
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#102
10-07-2011, 05:06 PM
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Cleaning up the randa warp hit box + Rate of damage reduction for lazer is $$$$.
+1 I don't think a nerf to the randa warp hit box will hurt tricksters / TA too much. It'll just take a little bit more precision for warp damage now but I don't think that's an unreasonable change.
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#103
10-07-2011, 05:17 PM
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Keeping the changes only to lazer to begin with is the best way to go.
Trickster is not THAT OP in Ball that it needs nerf , at least definitely not in the killing/damage-dealt side. Why not just address the issue that needs addressing instead of changing all Randa perks?
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#105
10-07-2011, 07:48 PM
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I'm not going to write an essay at this point and I'm not providing an elaborate view on laser and it's peculiarities. I do want to mention though, it is most likely not even possible to make TBD (near) perfectly fair and balanced plane-wise by only moderating laser's statistics/properties. I bet you'd have to change the statistics of several setups if not change the game entirely, not to mention the impossibility of doing this for both TBD AND Ball with the exact same set of planes.
It looks like lasers simply have too much value in TBD, at least in ladder games. Decreasing this without really altering the meta-game might be done by increasing the charge duration. However, this would make a laser even more worthless in ball... Last edited by Knipchip; 10-07-2011 at 07:50 PM.
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#106
10-07-2011, 08:16 PM
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actually thinking back upon it the hitbox is where a lot of randa kills lie. i feel like the current warp allows me to kill a lot of people that are behind me. not sure how to explain it, but even when a plane is behind me and shouldn't be killed, i can just warp forward and kill him with my tail (which still does full warp damage). if you cut the hitbox so, say, only the nose of the miranda does warp damage, it would make it so having an enemy slightly behind you is actually disadvantage rather than a null (since you can't just warp again with your tail right on top of him and kill him). it emphasizes positioning and accurate/well-timed warps and is less forgiving for newer players, which makes laser harder to instantly be good at and doesn't make laser less viable in top-tier play where the great players are hitting those warps anyway.
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#107
10-08-2011, 06:46 AM
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what about changing laser damage in relation to the distance to the target? Make it weaker at the tip and gradually get stronger at the source. This would make people decide if they can approach for the kill or just damage them from a safer distance.
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#108
10-08-2011, 09:06 AM
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Welp, just spent forever reading this entire thread. from personal experience, I don't know that laser is really OP, I think SSD might have it right here. Yes, it may be easier to pick up, but I get owned often enough by a good hc (or any bip, for that matter), bomber, and especially loopy of either variety. And while I main laser, I perform just as well if not better with flak. In fact, I just looked it up, and in ladder games while i have played far less bomber both in ladder and overall (meaning my skill should be lower), my kill rate with flak is significantly higher (+4.8 kills/10mins over laser compared to laser only being about +2 over other setups - read whale). I know it's frustrating for whales to get beat up by lasers, but that's the counter. Tbh, I'm kind of tired of all the qq in game over laser. Every time I die as a laser to a loopy because I can't move during that ungodly long emp I could rage, but I got caught out of position or without energy and paid the price. Every time I die to a laser as a whale it isn't because laser is inherently OP, it's because I'm out of position or alone. Biplane does just as much damage as laser. Yes, I know it has less mobility, but it makes up for it in health. A bip with heavy has more hp than a whale. The only reason randa's (of any kind) can survive at all is that they can escape or do enough damage quickly enough to limit damage to themselves. If laser were truly that incredibly game changing, we'd see a lot more emp like in ball or assid, which cuts through randas like butter. I don't remember who said it, but I think the idea to buff assid is a particularly good one. It would severely limit both laser and ta effectiveness as it cuts down on randa health significantly and is a sustained area effect, which would allow it to be placed so anchors, should they chose to anchor, have to fly through assid. I think even a slight assid buff would make it to randas as laser is to whale. Emp is already too damn good against randas. Randa is the only plane that can have its secondary weapon disabled.
However, if you must nerf laser, I think cleaning up the warp hitbox is a good start. Hitbox has always been kinda sloppy/done weird things. I think SSD's nose damage only idea has some merit. It would require a higher level of skill to inflict damage with warp, especially double warp. I could also live with a slightly longer period of time to deal the same damage. Rib is right though, laser's primary function is as a great killer, and if it doesn't have that it wont be played. It is a high damage output plane because you DO have to get close and give other planes an opportunity to wreck your paper hull. I REALLY dislike the decreased regen rate. Randa already has awful regen with charged weapon. I am already one of a dying breed (laser ultra) because the regen rate is so bad, but I like the double warp a bit faster, even if it punishes me elsewhere (call me crazy). Much more though, and I think I'd be forced to abandon it altogether. I think it would be a shame to limit the play in such a way. As far as running, I can run reasonably well with it, but a TA is obviously better, and I think I could make the case that a flex bip is better than trick/laser and HA loopy is in the same neighborhood. It's late so this probably isn't the most organized/coherent it could be. Apologies. Buff Last edited by adjahe; 10-08-2011 at 09:09 AM.
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#110
10-08-2011, 01:05 PM
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#111
10-08-2011, 03:02 PM
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#112
10-08-2011, 03:15 PM
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I disagree with ssd's nose-only warp idea as a nerf for laser. It will indeed nerf warp but it will mostly affect trickster and TA, not laser. I, for example, don't rely much on warp to kill, except to finish a plane after lasering it. Since you have a direct line pointing toward the plane, you don't really have a problem aiming for your warp. It will nerf laser but in a more situational way, which, imo, doesn't really affect laser's efficiency in general and won't really make it harder to be decently good at.
Whereas trickster, in ball notably, is going to suffer a lot from this: as a trickster, in ball, I rely a lot on killing with the warp while carrying the ball, especially by timing correctly my two delayed warps with turbo, which allows me to hit with the front and the rear of my plane. Last edited by Princess Squirtle; 10-08-2011 at 03:19 PM.
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#113
10-08-2011, 03:46 PM
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#114
10-08-2011, 05:37 PM
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If we are to nerf something, first thing should be TA. Lazer is a tiny tiny problem compared to TA. Here's some thoughts
Now for some suggestions as how to possibly fix it:
Again, I dont feel like lazer is a huge problem and I strongly urge to first deal with really broken things. However, I'm all for correcting the warp box. I don't think it will change the lazer or whatever balance in any way, but it will make for a cleaner game which is very nice. I use warp alot with trickster and I know for sure I've gotten some kills I shouldn't have. Also one idea to fix for lazer if you really must do it would be having it extend, not immediately start doing damage like right now (its the only plane that can deal damage without some projectile travel time).
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#115
10-08-2011, 05:50 PM
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u should post this in TA thread too even tho no one seems to ever reply in it. plz dont remove it from this thread like whoever admin did to my ta post. it seems way more likely that the ta thread will go on and die with nothing happening than this one ie u moving posts that are important concenptually about ta might as well be u deleting them, however if the ta thread does get going it only makes sense to post it there too.
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#116
10-08-2011, 05:54 PM
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@squirts: the way i see it, a warp adjustment or a damage reduction of the laser itself is the only real way to solve it. a range nerf or reducing damage based on how far the enemy plane is would work in terms of nerfing laser, but the question still stands that nobody has really addressed: is laser OP, or just too easy? if it's the previous then i feel a nerf is warranted, but i have a sneaking suspicion that all of the people arguing for a laser nerf are just annoyed at how easy the plane is and how many there are in ladder. i personally think that the best whales have "figured out" laser and that it's 99% a positioning battle, which is (to me) balance. i'd just hate to see my laser nerfed because a bunch of mediocre players yelled the loudest because their awful positioning was abused one too many times. imo, a nose-only warp fix would eliminate most problems that are found in the metagame at the highest level, which is where i believe the game should be balanced. most of the players that i would consider great seem to agree in that the laser itself is fine, but that the current warp zone that damages is too forgiving for lasers that expended all their energy and are now out of position but can still kill you by warping with their tails. i think that if we're looking to make laser less easy but still keep it as balanced at the highest level of the game, then this fix is the most elegant solution cooked up so far. i don't feel as if this nerf would affect trickster all that much (they leave close range engaging to the lasers) and would be a nerf to TA as well in that the TA can't kill as easily. can't tell you how many times i thought i had position on donk only to have him TA, warp me with his butt, TA, and warp again to kill me. EDIT: fwiw, when i say nose of the plane i mean the area from the very tip of the randa to the end of the cockpit. Last edited by sunshineduck; 10-08-2011 at 05:57 PM.
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#117
10-08-2011, 07:13 PM
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Ingbo, I had played TA for the vast majority of my alty career before "maining" it in tbd so I had plenty of experience with the plane, and also running in general in tbd(since I had been running with lazer before switching back to TA). I was also bad at killing with lazer because I learned movement in ball which relates to running in tbd, not killing. I was low 2000s with lazer when not running.. When I started running I jumped above 2300 and was still climbing when I switched to TA to runso what your saying isn't true. My climb had more to do with my skill in this game being much better with a ball or bomb than focusing on killing, because I’ve never done that for long in over a year of playing.
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#118
10-08-2011, 07:14 PM
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#119
10-08-2011, 07:19 PM
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I still think it would be more detrimental to trickster than to laser, especially in ball (moving and killing with warp is part of ball movements).
And as far as we're talking OPness of laser, I already stated my case: too easy aim for too much dps which makes it too efficient. Even with good positioning, you're going to get killed by how fast it deals damage and how easy it is to aim at you. It goes beyond the simple fact of a better positioning. Yes it's easy, which is not fundamentally a problem; but it's like using the AWP without the need to aim. Biplane's dps is rather balanced by how you have to aim (I still think biplane's secondary fire is ridiculously OP, but that's another point). So either make it harder to aim by reducing the reach of laser (which would also make lag laser less unforgivable), or make it deal less damage (also thought of an exponential amount of damage deal for as long as you keep touching the plane. So if you touch it all the way, you deal max damage, otherwise you're going to hurt it halfway, etc. If by any chance the other plane avoids in the middle of the lasering, the amount of damage delt cool down and start again from the cooldown position if it hits again, instead of reseting). And if warp needs to be nerfed, do it only for tbd. PS: again, I still think laser isn't that OP but still is a bit, though I can live with it. Last edited by Princess Squirtle; 10-08-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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#120
10-08-2011, 07:21 PM
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not if ur sticking together with ppl in ur team.... theoratically dont think laser is op honestly. PRACTICALLY THO maybe i hardly think ur presenting proof for it tho but again i think a laser nerf would be okay/good but if were looking at optimal tbd play the teams would most likely look heavy + ta runner like sammich did at their prime. lets face it then if thats an optimal plane comp how can laser be op (at least theorically).
edit: what i mean by practically btw is that the lvl of play in ladder is so low that laser can abuse its awesome ability to flank due to that the overall teams that are generated there are lolbad. Last edited by Ingbo; 10-08-2011 at 07:24 PM.
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Linear Mode
