HC (Heavy Cannon)

[corrado33]

Didn't see a thread about it (although did see one for laser) so I figured I'd bring it up.

What are your thoughts? Overpowered? Just right?

I'll probably get flamed for this (big deal).... But I personally think if the other team in TBD has 2 or 3 HCs (regardless of skill), you're screwed if the map has any sort of choke point (which most TBD maps do.)

My argument is this. Randa has a right to do a crap ton of damage. Why? It's incredibly weak. As it should be. That's how it is in most games. The fast agile *whatever* does a ton of damage. Sure, I get angry at extremely good lasers that you just can't seem to kill. But at least I SAW them kill me.

HC on the other hand... Sure, it's a skill plane. You only get one shot per energy. (If you don't use ultracap IIRC). But, it does just as much, if not more damage than randa and it has a much longer range than laser, AND it has the armor to back it up. (Not to mention free reverse.) A lot of times I'll get get randomly hit by a HC shot that came from nowhere. (Well, off screen at least.) And it's not like you have a chance to dodge their shots either.

Of course, there are ways to kill any plane in the game (I use a whale for HCs), and almost any plane in excess will be OP. I just think HCs are particularly bad.

In my defense, I asked a few of my friends in game (who are pretty good I might add) how to kill a heavy cannon biplane. Their answer. "With a better HC." If that's it's only weakness... I dunno.

You're thoughts?

(Note: I'm a recreational player. I play for fun. I don't play for sport, I don't play just to "be the best." So telling me that you can kill x plane with y plane by simply doing z probably won't help me. If I wanted to know that I'd read the plane guides. And yes, I understand that if you stay away from the FRONT of a HC, you'll be fine. That's easier said than done unless you have some sort of cover.)

[ZidaneTribal]

emp is pretty good

[leggomyeggo]

inb4 jrathe.

[corrado33]

I agree, emp is good.

But the question is, how do you reach the HC? HC has longer range than emp, so if they even get a shot on you before you get there, you're more than half dead. And if you ever come close to flying over top of them they'll just secondary weapon you to submission.

(Yes I realize taking on a HC in the open with a loopy is a stupid idea, but still....)

[Boko]

Originally Posted by ZidaneTribal

emp is pretty good

From the guy that thinks Donk and Shmo are bad.

Btw hush HC OP but ppl don't know that yet.

HC is like dogfighter, only it pierces and you have to hit less shots and it does more dmg.

Oh wait dogfighter has that getaway shizzy rubberhull like thingy right? Too bad you never get out of going close alive.

[Jrathje]

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

inb4 jrathe.

Dude, it's Jrath, not Jrathe. I don't know why you and INGBO (especially Ingbo) and others don't understand this.

But yea, HC rules.

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by corrado33

I'll probably get flamed for this (big deal)....
Weak way to start off a balance discussion thread. Stand firm in your opinions, man.

But I personally think if the other team in TBD has 2 or 3 HCs (regardless of skill), you're screwed if the map has any sort of choke point (which most TBD maps do.)
That's not true at all. Two/three HC's on a team is easily countered by a couple of emp's and simple game mechanics.

My argument is this. Randa has a right to do a crap ton of damage. Why? It's incredibly weak. As it should be. That's how it is in most games. The fast agile *whatever* does a ton of damage. Sure, I get angry at extremely good lasers that you just can't seem to kill. But at least I SAW them kill me.
This is still up for debate (see: laser thread). Afaik, "how it is" in most games is that the fastest and most agile class does the least damage to account for their speed/agility. Here, randa's low base health is supposed to balance both its giant damage output and its speed/agility. Not sure why this is relevant to an HC balance discussion thread, though.

HC on the other hand... Sure, it's a skill plane. You only get one shot per energy. (If you don't use ultracap IIRC). But, it does just as much, if not more damage than randa and it has a much longer range than laser, AND it has the armor to back it up. (Not to mention free reverse.) A lot of times I'll get get randomly hit by a HC shot that came from nowhere. (Well, off screen at least.) And it's not like you have a chance to dodge their shots either.
So your argument for HC being OP is that:
-it does as much or more dmg than randa (untrue for charged shots)
-it has longer range than laser (most weapons in the game have a longer range than laser does)
-it has a medium amount of health
I don't see it as OP for the reasons you listed. If you want to compare it to randa, you could say that it trades both firepower and an immense amount of agility for some extra health. Hardly a fair exchange for the biplane. Intentional offscreen shots are much more prominent in trickster/TA players, and all other planes have the ability to blindly fire into off-screen chokepoints.

Of course, there are ways to kill any plane in the game (I use a whale for HCs), and almost any plane in excess will be OP. I just think HCs are particularly bad.
Particularly bad to kill or particularly bad in excess? Because I think a decent randa player is harder to kill in general and explodets/bombers in excess are much more annoying.

In my defense, I asked a few of my friends in game (who are pretty good I might add) how to kill a heavy cannon biplane. Their answer. "With a better HC." If that's it's only weakness... I dunno.
If that's the answer they came up with for you, then I'm afraid you'll have to find more skilled friends to ask about balance.

(Note: I'm a recreational player.)
Maybe you should have opened with this as a disclaimer. And perhaps therein lies your problem. Balance is considered at the highest levels of play (i.e. ladder + APL), and from my experience, this perk has never been OP. In my entire time playing, I've seen maybe four players play it effectively, and even then they don't somewhat break the game like the few good TAs out there do.

Bolded .

[sunshineduck]

hc doesn't have less firepower than trickster. lol?

it does less instantaneous burst damage, but can keep a continuous stream of damage pouring in using turbo and has more instant damage using ultra assuming both shots land. you also don't need to charge your shot.

[Boko]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

hc doesn't have less firepower than trickster. lol?

it does less instantaneous burst damage, but can keep a continuous stream of damage pouring in using turbo and has more instant damage using ultra assuming both shots land. you also don't need to charge your shot.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhh quiet

[[Y]]

**** I had whole response typed and then I hit back on keyboard >___>

basically,
-randa warp hitbox = significantly more firepower, esp. with 180 turn
-hc's "continuous stream" requiring you stay on top of the other plane (made rare by recoil/tailgun/mines/randa180/loopy's afterburner)
-two shots landing doesn't count as instant damage
-not having to charge the shot not making up for all the other disadvantages it compared to randa

Also, it's not much of an "HC OP" argument by trying to say that it's somehow better than randa.

eta: Boko why don't you enlighten us to why you think it's op instead of passively implying it?

[sunshineduck]

no arguments on the warp hitbox, but factoring in warp negates your two shots landing point. shot+warp is as much instantaneous damage as two consecutive hc shots from an ultracap hc.

continuous stream requires what? i'm saying that while each individual hc shot doesn't do as much dmg as one trickster charged shot, you're able to keep a constant stream of extremely high damage spam in a choke. tricksters cannot control space like that at all.

i'm not saying that hc is better or worse than miranda overall, simply refuting your "biplane trades firepower and ridic amounts of agility for more hp" argument. it's not really trading firepower at all.

[saturday]

I find myself Hitting people with HC From far Distances and and Even when its Near them, You dont hit them (or at least you dont see contact) but you do.

I sometimes refresh on my HC but I dont use it, I suggest Director Whale, when their in the Choke point You hit em and they fall to the Wall, Personally, Learn the HC then Something More difficult...

Most Regards,
$aturday The Rainbow
P.S. Y'ull Never get me Pot of Gold!

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by saturday

I find myself Hitting people with HC From far Distances and and Even when its Near them, You dont hit them (or at least you dont see contact) but you do.

I sometimes refresh on my HC but I dont use it, I suggest Director Whale, when their in the Choke point You hit em and they fall to the Wall, Personally, Learn the HC then Something More difficult...

Most Regards,
$aturday The Rainbow
P.S. Y'ull Never get me Pot of Gold!

Thank you for your excellent contribution to this thread


Now, to the point: I seem to recall similar comparisons of Miranda to Bip when the forums were on a big Biplane nerf/buff trend and everyone was trying to figure out its role; the problem being that Miranda was DPS, Biplane was DPS, but Miranda was considerably better at successfully applying that DPS and surviving while Biplane was kind of a jack-of-all.

Biplane's a very ordinary plane - where every other plane has has a defining feature (Loopy EMP/autoaim, Bomber's incredible spam power, Miranda's invincible mobility and unstoppable firepower, and Whale just stopping entire teams in their tracks with their movement play), Biplane is just a plane with a gun. Biplane HC is not made for blindly spamming chokes, if you say that, you are wrong. Unless the opponent is literally sitting in the choke saying "SHOOT ME SHOOT ME" you are going to land ONE lucky hit at best before he's crossed the danger area, and one shot doesn't kill anything. Compare that to Bomber doing a grenade volley for instant death on pretty much everything below an Explodet and I'd much rather have a Bomber spamming my chokes than an HC.

I think regardless of what the actual statistical DPS of HC or Miranda is in a standardized test, Miranda is a lot better at applying that damage and surviving for a number of reasons like its huge agility-based survivability and how hugely it can frontload its damage.

[Demuyt]

Originally Posted by saturday

I find myself Hitting people with HC From far Distances and and Even when its Near them, You dont hit them (or at least you dont see contact) but you do.

ok so

1) How many sentences are there in this text "pack"
2) What's the meaning of the capital letters suddenly popping out
3) How many times did y-

...

[corrado33]

Originally Posted by Demuyt

ok so

1) How many sentences are there in this text "pack"
2) What's the meaning of the capital letters suddenly popping out
3) How many times did y-

...

I understand what you are saying. I also get annoyed by terrible grammar. But he makes a relevant point. With HC, you don't even need to hit the person to do damage to them. I don't know if that's because of lag or what, but that's especially annoying. The same doesn't seem to apply to trickster shots.

[classicallad]

Originally Posted by corrado33

I understand what you are saying. I also get annoyed by terrible grammar. But he makes a relevant point. With HC, you don't even need to hit the person to do damage to them. I don't know if that's because of lag or what, but that's especially annoying. The same doesn't seem to apply to trickster shots.

Are you getting confused with HC's piercing ability?

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by Jrathje

Dude, it's Jrath, not Jrathe. I don't know why you and INGBO (especially Ingbo) and others don't understand this.

But yea, HC rules.

well..... i do feel i VARY the ways i say jrath, but since ur forum account is jrathje i usually just refer to u the way i see u have ur forum account
its really hard to remember this preference but ill try to keep in mind u prefer jrath <3

[ManSkirtBrew]

Originally Posted by classicallad

Are you getting confused with HC's piercing ability?

I think he's talking about when you see an HC's bullet pass a plane length or two away from your plane's sprite and still get hit by it. I see that a lot, and I can't always chalk it up to lag. It would be nice if that were fixed.

That said, I don't think HC is really OP. It's certainly annoying, especially when combined with the relatively large HP of the bip - HA on a bip almost seems unfair, but that's another thread - but I wouldn't call it overpowered.

It just makes a light plane like a Randa work a lot harder on tactics and positioning, since the bip has a fairly small sprite, lots of HP and can instakill with 2 fast shots (and possibly a third if using ultra or AI+barz), where the Randa shoots its load with 1 warpshot, then has to maneuver back into position without getting killed while charging up for a second killshot.

-Joe

[Ribilla]

I do kind of think that HC is OP against randa, but then, that's the entire point of it. Without HC laser would be imba, currently I think that HC brings it into line. Laser counters heavy planes, HC counters light ones, simples. Randa is great against other planes and you can't expect it to counter everything. In the same way bomber rapes pretty much everything except laser and EMP.

Provided TA and laser stay the same, HC can be left alone IMO, it seems to be balanced fine to me.

IMO the reason lag seems worst with HC is because:

a) They are very high damage projectiles, being hit by one stray loopy rocket isn't as bad.
b) They fly straight. It's harder to notice lag loopy missiles (they wiggle about and can bend round corners) and whale rockets (no direct hit required). Any projectile with a very defined flight path and damage region is easier to notice lag on.
c) They pierce, normally there is a visual cue of the projectile disappearing or bouncing when it hits a plane. There is no such cue with HC.

There has been a shift to HC because there has been a shift to light planes.

Also lag thermo is worst lag.

[Jrathje]

Originally Posted by ManSkirtBrew

where the Randa shoots its load with 1 warpshot

Heh. Heh. Heh.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

Also lag thermo is worst lag.

True story.

[peww]

Originally Posted by Jrathje

Heh. Heh. Heh.

hahahahahah

[mssv]

You say: "if the other team in TBD has 2 or 3 HCs (regardless of skill)".
If that happen that team has little to none chance to win, hence it's not OP. Put 2 or 3 Randas in a team and voilà, auto-geegee.

Now, if you could have 3 Vipr in one team then yeah, it's going to be hard to beat them, but that has nothing to do with the plane itself but player skill. Now find 3 guys like Vipr and put them together in your clan, gogogo look for them! Freewins!

[Ingbo]

so 3 randas on a team is "auto-geegee" regardless of skill? this is srsly ur defence to hc not being op? am i missing something? hc is the toughest to play vs in randa fyi

[lemon]

Yeah, people seem to think HC counters randas and it does in theory but that plane is so stupidly hard to play. Landing two shots on miranda is HARD. Unless you're using mouse then you just point and click and voila, but keyboard has it very tough and thats why I find players like Vipr who constantly trash randas so amazing. Most other HCs get raped by lazers and such because they cannot consistently hit their shots.

[mssv]

I don't think HC is OP at all. Any plane is op if you whore frags at base or hide behind team to ks smoking planes... Now if we compare the ability to push, then you need to timing your shots very well and despite Randas they cannot avoid being killed and reset that easily.

[Ingbo]

weird cause i dont think hc is hard to land at all neither do i consider it to be op.

[sunshineduck]

it's getting kind of old how hard it is for ppl to distinguish the difference between easy and op

[leggomyeggo]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

Also lag thermo is worst lag.

Says the lag laser.

[Ingbo]

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

Says the lag laser.

2nd lag laser agrees, lag thermo is the worst. u dont even see the fkn blast cloud then u crash

[Boko]

Nobody mentioned it but HC is OP in cluster****s, so it's stronger in maps with choke points.

[saturday]

Originally Posted by Demuyt

ok so

1) How many sentences are there in this text "pack"
2) What's the meaning of the capital letters suddenly popping out
3) How many times did y-

...

I was trying to explain it, Plus it was 10:00 PM, Don't hate the player hAtE da gamee

Most Regards,
$aturday The Rainbow
P.S. You'll Never get me Pot of Gold!

[Greekjr14]

Originally Posted by saturday

I was trying to explain it, Plus it was 10:00 PM, Don't hate the player hAtE da gamee

Most Regards,
$aturday The Rainbow
P.S. You'll Never get me Pot of Gold!

10 pm...k.....anyways, hc blah blah pew pew blah blah QQ blah blah rage blah blah idkwtfimsaying.

[leggomyeggo]

Originally Posted by saturday

I was trying to explain it, Plus it was 10:00 PM, Don't hate the player hAtE da gamee

Most Regards,
$aturday The Rainbow
P.S. You'll Never get me Pot of Gold!

Oh my god how did you get your parents to let you stay up that late? D:
My parents don't let me up past 9:00 on a good night!

[Mt.Vesuvius]

Originally Posted by saturday

I find myself Hitting people with HC From far Distances and and Even when its Near them, You dont hit them (or at least you dont see contact) but you do.

I sometimes refresh on my HC but I dont use it, I suggest Director Whale, when their in the Choke point You hit em and they fall to the Wall, Personally, Learn the HC then Something More difficult...

Most Regards,
$aturday The Rainbow
P.S. Y'ull Never get me Pot of Gold!

It's a secret code. H F D E N Y D W C Y W P L S M

Interpreted into: Head for dollars. Everyone, nerf yellow dinosaurs when cats yell. Wiggers, please lick some monkeys.

[corrado33]

Originally Posted by ManSkirtBrew

I think he's talking about when you see an HC's bullet pass a plane length or two away from your plane's sprite and still get hit by it. I see that a lot, and I can't always chalk it up to lag. It would be nice if that were fixed.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. MOST of the time, I don't even get hit by the projectile. I'm not exaggerating either. I barely ever get hit directly with a HC shot. When I do, I chalk it up to my stupidity for letting them hit me. It's when it's a plane's length away that makes me angry. (Especially when you say to yourself "No way that will hit me, I'm heading away from it.....") If this alone was fixed, I think it'd be more manageable.

Also, a lot of people are comparing HC shots vs trickster or laser and warp. The problem with the trick+warp or laser+warp combo is that you have to be close to use it. (Not that hard with a randa most of the time) The HC does ridiculous damage far away. Sure you can hit something that far away with a trickster shot, but you can't send another down range any time soon. AND the HC has another ridiculous short range weapon as well.


Also, I understand that bombers are the ultimate choke point spammer. But you can SEE (and hear) the bombs coming. If you are aware of where you're heading, you can dodge them most of the time. Especially because to truly spam, the bomber would have to be off screen, trying to use the element of surprise. Therefore you usually have a lot of time to react. Sure, they could be right at the choke point, but if you fly into a choke point when you can SEE a bomber on the other end, you're an idiot anyway. (Or you have a shield.) Not true with HC. It could be off screen firing into a choke point and you'd never be the wiser until either you or your teammates got shot. (Unless you actually keep track of whose bullets are whose.) And most of the time, when someone has the bomb the HC knows where it's coming from anyway. Just aim at that choke point and you're good to go. (Yes, this is where a push would generally come in handy.)

[Boko]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

Also lag thermo is worst lag.

YES I DODGED IT, *afterburn*, *crash*

[Greekjr14]

Originally Posted by corrado33

This is exactly what I'm talking about. MOST of the time, I don't even get hit by the projectile. I'm not exaggerating either. I barely ever get hit directly with a HC shot. When I do, I chalk it up to my stupidity for letting them hit me. It's when it's a plane's length away that makes me angry. (Especially when you say to yourself "No way that will hit me, I'm heading away from it.....") If this alone was fixed, I think it'd be more manageable.

Also, a lot of people are comparing HC shots vs trickster or laser and warp. The problem with the trick+warp or laser+warp combo is that you have to be close to use it. (Not that hard with a randa most of the time) The HC does ridiculous damage far away. Sure you can hit something that far away with a trickster shot, but you can't send another down range any time soon. AND the HC has another ridiculous short range weapon as well.


Also, I understand that bombers are the ultimate choke point spammer. But you can SEE (and hear) the bombs coming. If you are aware of where you're heading, you can dodge them most of the time. Especially because to truly spam, the bomber would have to be off screen, trying to use the element of surprise. Therefore you usually have a lot of time to react. Sure, they could be right at the choke point, but if you fly into a choke point when you can SEE a bomber on the other end, you're an idiot anyway. (Or you have a shield.) Not true with HC. It could be off screen firing into a choke point and you'd never be the wiser until either you or your teammates got shot. (Unless you actually keep track of whose bullets are whose.) And most of the time, when someone has the bomb the HC knows where it's coming from anyway. Just aim at that choke point and you're good to go. (Yes, this is where a push would generally come in handy.)

hc is a gentleman ninja plane. It can't be heard or seen.

[Beagle]

Dear corrado33,

I believe that insulting people in internet discussion threads is counter-productive and only makes the other person less likely to see your reasoning. Unfortunately, everything you say is stupid. It's so stupid I can't help but find it incredibly stupid. I shouldn't want to reply to something this stupid but for some reason I can't tear myself away.

Originally Posted by corrado33

This is exactly what I'm talking about. MOST of the time, I don't even get hit by the projectile. I'm not exaggerating either. I barely ever get hit directly with a HC shot. When I do, I chalk it up to my stupidity for letting them hit me. It's when it's a plane's length away that makes me angry. (Especially when you say to yourself "No way that will hit me, I'm heading away from it.....") If this alone was fixed, I think it'd be more manageable.

No, that IS lag. If you have played HC for even one ****ing round you will know the hitbox of HC bullets is accurate because you don't ****ing hit anyone who the bullet doesn't touch. If you seriously tried playing the plane you are bitching about ONCE, you would know that this HUGE PROBLEM THAT IF FIXED WOULD MAKE THE PLANE MANAGEABLE is complete horse **** and you are being a ****ing idiot.

Also, a lot of people are comparing HC shots vs trickster or laser and warp. The problem with the trick+warp or laser+warp combo is that you have to be close to use it. (Not that hard with a randa most of the time) The HC does ridiculous damage far away. Sure you can hit something that far away with a trickster shot, but you can't send another down range any time soon. AND the HC has another ridiculous short range weapon as well.

"WAH HC OUTRANGES ME OH **** TRICKSTER SHOTS HAVE A LONGER RANGE THAN HC BULLETS WHAT AM I DOING". 'But Beagle if I attack from long range against the Biplane how do I warp combo for an instant and uncounterable kill?' You don't, and that is good. You admitted yourself its not hard to attack at close-range with a Randa; in fact, considering you have either Time Anchor or Instant Reverse, attacking at close range is often a horrifying and panicky affair for whatever normally-moving plane you are attacking. Meanwhile, HC CAN kill you from its max range, yes, if the player is the god of HC and never misses a shot, or if you're flying straight at him like a moron. Being able to reliably 2-3 shot a Randa on the other side of the screen that isn't flying straight at you is a pretty ****ing great skill and if you would like that skill nerfed somehow, **** you, the whole point is the dude has ****ing sweet aim and just put some cover between you and him or go run up to him and do your warp bull**** you ***hole. "A BLOO BLOO BLOO I CAN'T SIT IN THE MIDDLE OF A CHOKE AND NOT DIE TO THE HC WHO IS LOOKING AT ME" = You, **** you


Also, I understand that bombers are the ultimate choke point spammer. But you can SEE (and hear) the bombs coming.

YEAH, BECAUSE HC SHOTS ARE FIRED NOISELESSLY AND ARE INVISIBLE. WOW, **** YOU SO MUCH. IF THERE WAS A RELIGION DEDICATED TO ****ING YOU I WOULD JOIN IT RIGHT NOW. BUT IT GETS WORSE, LET'S KEEP READING THIS PILE OF ****.

If you are aware of where you're heading, you can dodge them most of the time. Especially because to -->truly spam<--, the bomber would have to be off screen, trying to use the -->element of surprise<--.

I HIGHLIGHTED SOME **** FOR EFFECT BECAUSE WHAT THE **** ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW

Therefore you usually have a lot of time to react. Sure, they could be right at the choke point, but if you fly into a choke point when you can SEE a bomber on the other end, you're an idiot anyway. (Or you have a shield.)

BREAKING NEWS: IF YOU FLY INTO A CHOKE BEING SPAMMED WITH HC SHOTS YOU ARE ALSO AN IDIOT

Not true with HC.

PLEASE TELL ME HOW

It could be off screen firing into a choke point and you'd never be the wiser until either you or your teammates got shot.

OR YOU SEE THE BULLETS COMING LIKE YOUR REASONING FOR THE BOMBER, BUT HEY THIS IS SOUTH ALTITUDERICA WHERE WE ****ING HATE BIPLANES BECAUSE THEY ARE A METAPHOR FOR BLACK PEOPLE OR SOMETHING

(Unless you actually keep track of whose bullets are whose.)

WHAT

And most of the time, when someone has the bomb the HC knows where it's coming from anyway. Just aim at that choke point and you're good to go. (Yes, this is where a push would generally come in handy.)

WHY DO YOU KEEP MAKING ARGUMENTS THEN PUTTING THINGS IN PARANTHESES THAT ADMIT YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE BULL****? WHY WOULD YOU EVEN BOTHER MAKING THAT ARGUMENT AFTER REALISING IT MADE NO SENSE? HOLY **** **** YOU SO MUCH

I AM SO ANGRY I'M GOING TO GO PLAY ALTITUDE AND BE HC AND NOT BE OVERPOWERED, **** YOU GO **** YOUR ****ING ****HOLE IN A ****ING FOREST FIRE AND BURN TO TINY STUPID ASHES

[Smushface]

Yo not to sound elitist or anything, but when did we start taking balance advice from people who never step outside of pubs?

No offense OP, but 7v7 TBD is not exactly the pinnacle of Altitude. *insert analogy here*