The new bumper/shield thing

[tmm3k]

It's pretty cool and a good twist on the old shields, but it would be nice if, like missiles and walls, it were the color of the team rather than just blue for everyone.



In this screenshot for example, it should be silver rather than blue. Like with missiles and walls, it's nice to know what belongs to who, and with some of the 10+ games we've been having on evenings, things can get pretty hectic.

[Snowsickle]

I just wanted to add that projectiles reflected with this powerup should change color to reflect their new behavior.

[tmm3k]

Well, since these bumpers are way more powerful than they appear, I think having it so anything bouncing off of them can hurt all players.

[The Pondermatic]

If that will be the case, have weapons change to a non-team specific color to indicate as much, like black.

[DiogenesDog]

Thoughts so far:

It's a lot of fun, but it's overpowered as heck. I'd like to see it with a hole cut in the front, kinda like the old shield. It'd still be very useful, but you couldn't just "ram" people while spamming fire, which is pretty nasty.

[tmm3k]

Yeah, as I said in game, it needs to be shortened and the length of time it sticks around also needs to be shortened, to around the same time as a wall.

Someone commented in game that shields tend to appear more frequently, but I think that's just because players are more likely to get rid of a wall in favor of a shield because of how overpowered it currently is.

I'd really like it to be like the old shield though, where it covers the top and bottom of your plane, leaving the front and back exposed.

[Blank]

seems fine to me.

[Snowsickle]

Shields causing projectiles to hit everyone: no.

Honestly I don't see why so many people are calling it overpowered right now. I have not thus far had a problem attacking someone from any of the ~300 degrees not covered by the shield. Its not anywhere near the safety of the oldschool shield. With a wall or a missile, you can pretty much guarantee a kill if you play your cards right. With a shield you can basically do the same thing. Powerup whoring in general is out of hand right now because of the availability of powerups. Honestly, explodets using double missile for an instant kill is worse than the current state of the shield. Anyway, I vote give it some time with its current implementation. People are dropping other powerups for the shield because its new, not necessarily because its a better choice. Powerup whoring in general should be far better off when powerups spawn at fixed locations.

PS: It has been tested for less than 24 hours. Play it for more than a day before you label it overpowered?

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

Shields causing projectiles to hit everyone: no.

Honestly I don't see why so many people are calling it overpowered right now. Its not anywhere near the safety of the oldschool shield.

True, while it doesn't shield nearly as much, it shields the most important part: the front. It works best as an offensive weapon, as mentioned in game, because a plane can fire from behind it for a long time and only get barely damaged by an explodet missile. It's also difficult to get around a plane that's using a shield because the shield is so wide. Maybe if the shield were turned inward instead of outward, it wouldn't be as powerful.

Powerup whoring in general is out of hand right now because of the availability of powerups.

Agreed. If powerups spawned only in certain spots and not on death, I wouldn't have any problem with it. But until static powerups are added, the shield needs some tweaking.

Some possible variations on the shield:





Might be a little too short or too close/far from the plane. But they'd really only be necessary until static powerups are put in.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

PS: It has been tested for less than 24 hours. Play it for more than a day before you label it overpowered?

Well, with the turning abilities of certain planes, it makes it largely impossible to attack anyone using a shield until it runs out because they can counter any attacks by simply spinning around. Walls and Explodet missiles are really the best way of attacking someone with a shield. Otherwise, you just have to run away, which is no fun for either party. Even when you get right on top of the shielded person in a biplane, a lot of your shots are still deflected and hit your tail despite the majority of the plane being on the other side of the shield.

It may not need to have a size change right away, but I can say for certain that it lasts for too long.

[Snowsickle]

Against anyone competent the front should be the last thing you need to protect. It is not advantageous to attack any plane in the game head on, with the exception of maybe the loopy. As a biplane I found it a joke to go around or through it. As a loopy or miranda you have even more maneuverability. As a bomber the shield user has to practically stall themselves to hold the shield there for any direction. As an explodet, well, its a bitch. Use the range you should already have to run off and wait out the duration.

It doesn't need tweaking. See attachment.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

Against anyone competent the front should be the last thing you need to protect. It is not advantageous to attack any plane in the game head on, with the exception of maybe the loopy. As a biplane I found it a joke to go around or through it.

I understand that, but the shielded plane can also rotate as its attacker moves around it for a better shot. Think of the shielded plane as the center of the circle and the attacker riding around the circumference looking for a better shot. The center only has to rotate a little bit whereas the plane riding the circumference has a greater distance to travel. The center plane can afford to stall because it has an afterburner. It's worse when a team of 4-5 all have walls. Your only way past them is through them.

Also the no-attack zone for a bomber is anywhere but the front.

The main thing the shield needs is just a slightly shortened timer, and most the problems I have with it would go away.

[Blank]

I had no problem just going point blank and raping with biplane or bomber. Loopys and mirandas won't have a problem hitting a soft spot. And explodets can detonate missiles prior to shield pouncing.

It's probably strongest against bomber, but who the **** cares? It's a bomber, everything ****s them over.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Blank

I had no problem just going point blank and raping with biplane or bomber. Loopys and mirandas won't have a problem hitting a soft spot. And explodets can detonate missiles prior to shield pouncing.

It's probably strongest against bomber, but who the **** cares? It's a bomber, everything ****s them over.

Yes, Explodets seem to work best against them. Bombers get hilariously raped by shields, much so than before. But when I'd go in as a Biplane from behind/the side to get someone with a shield, it seemed like the back of the shield was deflecting my shots back onto me as I was destroying the other player's plane.

[Blank]

When you're behind them/on their side: Don't aim at the shield, aim at the plane.

Problem solved.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Blank

When you're behind them/on their side: Don't aim at the shield, aim at the plane.

Problem solved.

I'm aiming directly at them and hitting them dead on yet my shots also seem to be hitting me back.

[Blank]

If you're shots are getting deflected, I'm willing to bet you're hitting the shield... because when I'm getting shot from the side/behind, bullets aren't bouncing off me.

You might be lagging, cross-eyed, mentally handicap... or a combination of the 3.

[Kildayen]

So much fail in this thread, and all from the same person.

Give the shield time. Knee-jerk reactions won't balance the game.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Blank

If you're shots are getting deflected, I'm willing to bet you're hitting the shield... because when I'm getting shot from the side/behind, bullets aren't bouncing off me.

You might be lagging, cross-eyed, mentally handicap... or a combination of the 3.

I'd be willing to test it out, because I'm fairly certain of what I saw.

So much fail in this thread, and all from the same person.

Give the shield time. Knee-jerk reactions won't balance the game.

It's not a knee-jerk reaction. At first I thought the shield was pretty cool, but after seeing it in play for a few hours here and there throughout the day, it needs some balancing is all.

And I don't understand the need to resort to insults to drive your points across. If you truly believe your opinions are correct, let your arguments stand on their own merits without insulting me. It's not like I'm brand new to the game; my suggestions and concerns are just as legitimate as anyone else's, seeing as how it's a beta and all. And I'm not the only person who shares the opinion that the shield is too powerful.

[Kildayen]

Originally Posted by tmm3k

It's not a knee-jerk reaction. At first I thought the shield was pretty cool, but after seeing it in play for a few hours here and there throughout the day

That is exactly what I mean. You've only had a brief experience with the shield, and you're already crusading for it to be changed. We'll all need more time to say what, if anything, should be done to it.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Kildayen

That is exactly what I mean. You've only had a brief experience with the shield, and you're already crusading for it to be changed. We'll all need more time to say what, if anything, should be done to it.

A few hours here and there with 7-10 other players is enough, in my opinion. I'm not suggesting we get rid of it, I'm suggesting the amount of time its in use be slightly shortened, and maybe trying out a version that isn't as wide. Yet all of a sudden I'm on a crusade? It doesn't need to be changed immediately. I'm not advocating anything drastic, nor am I starting some sort of stupid online petition.

The changes to the shield would be unnecessary if powerups didn't appear every single time a person died.

I'm not saying that the shields are some huge thing that are ruining the game and that they need to be taken out right away, I'm offering suggestions to help improve a beta game. Notice how we're in the suggestions forum? I'm addressing a concern I have with a certain aspect of the game, presenting possible solutions to overcome it, yet all I'm getting in response are insults and mockery.

Edit: ideally, I'd like the old style shields, because those worked out fine for months and months and months.

[Snowsickle]

A few hours here and there with 7-10 other players is enough, in my opinion.

**** like this is why you get mocked.

Nobody is coming to this thread because they're "out to get you". You are offering suggestions that you think would improve a game, thats fine. When 2-3 players (a sizable portion of the serious playerbase), who are all players who are quite experienced and have played for a long time, even longer than you, tell you they disagree, you simply get defensive and tell them they're wrong instead of making some kind of reasonable argument.

I'm wondering if we even played the same game two years ago, because old style shields with the improved netcode of current altitude would provide damn near invincibility. I feel a hell of a lot safer attacking a new shield, in any plane, then I did attacking the old one, and thats with poor netcode making it hard for the shielded plane to plan out his deflections.

Heres the difference between us:

I played for a few hours against people using the shield, and I have a plan for dealing with people who use it.

You played for a few hours and went straight to the forums to ask Lam to change it for you.

[DiogenesDog]

In his (and my) defense, Lam did ask for feedback on the shield. And I think it's valuable to get first impressions. Something might be balanced for experienced players and still be frustrating for newbs.

Also, I always thought the old shield was overpowered too, so at least I'm being consistent. :P

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

**** like this is why you get mocked.

Nobody is coming to this thread because they're "out to get you". You are offering suggestions that you think would improve a game, thats fine. When 2-3 players (a sizable portion of the serious playerbase), who are all players who are quite experienced and have played for a long time, even longer than you, tell you they disagree, you simply get defensive and tell them they're wrong instead of making some kind of reasonable argument.

Half the time in this thread, I'm agreeing with what one of you is saying. The other half, instead of simply saying "no you're wrong," I'm giving reasons why I disagree. I only started getting defensive when Blank and Kildayen started making it personal.

I'm wondering if we even played the same game two years ago, because old style shields with the improved netcode of current altitude would provide damn near invincibility.

Only one way to find out.

You played for a few hours and went straight to the forums to ask Lam to change it for you.

Actually, I posted this thread before even playing against anyone with it, and I was initially addressing a minor aesthetic detail and commenting on how cool it looked. After that, Lams asked us in game to comment on it, which we did. But I figured that it's easier to explain things on the forum rather than in game, which is why I started offering suggestions in here. By also posting it on the forum, it generates better more reasoned discussion than in game, as clearly demonstrated by all of our differing views.

[Blank]

Originally Posted by tmm3k

The changes to the shield would be unnecessary if powerups didn't appear every single time a person died.

This is my problem. You're using retard logic to try and balance something. Rather than fix the problem (powerups are EVERYWHERE), you want to balance the powerup... which isn't the problem.

At least dio is whacky enough to think the powerup is broken and worth fixing.

Still need to play around with it more. It's hard to gage it's effectiveness when it ends up being flooded because of powerup spammage (IE, the real issue). A missile or a wall is 9 times out of 10, guaranteed damage. If the shield doesn't match that, it's worthless.

Fixed powerup spawns, team-only powerup drops from enemies, or powerup rewards after X amount of kills, would go a long way to fixing that.

[Karl]

i think powerups should be like perks in COD4. You just spawn with what ever powerup you want. and you have to level up to unlock other powerups .

ok im not too serious about the whole leveling up thing but it's definitely something we've been thinking about.

So in all seriousness what if you spawned with a powerup so it was like a 3rd weapon that you got to choose? then of coarse powerups would have to be nerfed... and then when landing is implemented it will refresh your powerup so there's some motivation to land and it helps with defending.

[Vi*]

My first impression: I hate it with all my little guts.

New shield has the same problem I had with the old shield: it's bouncy and so there's more little things flying around everywhere. I can imagine possibly enjoying it in a very small game, but in a big game it adds to the already too prevalent chaos.

Originally Posted by Karl

So in all seriousness what if you spawned with a powerup so it was like a 3rd weapon that you got to choose? then of coarse powerups would have to be nerfed... and then when landing is implemented it will refresh your powerup so there's some motivation to land and it helps with defending.

This idea could work well, and I like the bit of personalization it creates, but it wouldn't mesh with the current system. Powerups would all have to change and be super balanced, while part of the charm of the old biplanes system was having some powerups you want more than others, and putting them in different places as incentives to go there. I would like to see the old system re-implemented, and I like having health spawn upon people's deaths, and I think this new idea has potential but it would have to have an entirely separate selection of powerups.

[tmm3k]

Originally Posted by Karl

So in all seriousness what if you spawned with a powerup so it was like a 3rd weapon that you got to choose? then of coarse powerups would have to be nerfed... and then when landing is implemented it will refresh your powerup so there's some motivation to land and it helps with defending.

I think it would be better if we didn't get to choose them, and it was just random. Otherwise everyone would just choose missiles (or ammo powerups once they get put in). But then we get back to the problem of powerups spawning every time a person dies.

There was also a thread with good powerup/third weapon ideas around here somewhere, because it would be awesome to have a wide variety of powerups (though probably more time consuming to code for you guys).

[Vi*]

Originally Posted by Vi*

I can imagine possibly enjoying it in a very small game, but in a big game it adds to the already too prevalent chaos.

My suspicions have been confirmed: I do like shield in small game, so much better than the old shield. Problem in big game is that by the time you've maneuvered around the shield to kill your target, either you or your target is already dead. Really the servers just need player limits, as has been suggested by others.

edit: Stolen kills wouldn't be such a nuisance if people were really playing as a team. So really my dislike of shield in big team games means that we need FFA. I think not much fine balancing and editing should be done until we do have FFA. Big things first.

[Snowsickle]

Originally Posted by Vi*

My suspicions have been confirmed: I do like shield in small game, so much better than the old shield. Problem in big game is that by the time you've maneuvered around the shield to kill your target, either you or your target is already dead. Really the servers just need player limits, as has been suggested by others.

edit: Stolen kills wouldn't be such a nuisance if people were really playing as a team. So really my dislike of shield in big team games means that we need FFA. I think not much fine balancing and editing should be done until we do have FFA. Big things first.

Honestly this isn't much different than the wall, or in certain situations, the missile powerup. Both can delay someone from killing you long enough for either you or the target to die. So your issue seems to be more with powerups in general.

[Kildayen]

I'd say shield is weaker in large battles, personally. It only protects the front of your plane, and with more enemies you're more likely to be flanked.

[Blank]

About powerups:

I think health should be a powerup, and planes should only drop 1 random powerup. This would (ideally) accomplish a few things:

1- 1 more powerup in the rotation, so less of everything else.
2- Force players to "burn" their current powerup if they want health.
3- Help curb health whoring (you won't waste X powerup to pick up health if you're already near full)

Right now, you sort of have a "rich get richer" scheme in place. Where the victor in a given battle not only gets most/all of his health back, but he also gets a powerup to boot. The only thing really counteracting this is greedy players

You could also toss a health box near each player's base to simulate what landing would do. Put it on a timer like the big bomb and make it NOT a powerup but function like the current health (so it can't be carried into battle).

[Kildayen]

I don't want to see health as a powerup, but having a destroyed plane drop just one thing would be nice.

[lamsbro]

The more comments and view points the better. Be kind, rewind.

[Vi*]

Originally Posted by Snowsickle

Honestly this isn't much different than the wall, or in certain situations, the missile powerup. Both can delay someone from killing you long enough for either you or the target to die. So your issue seems to be more with powerups in general.

Yeah, but "down with powerups" is not a position anyone else supports, so I'll continue trying to undermine them each individually.

[lamsbro]

Is there a down with power-ups club out there? I am not a big fan of the current implementations of the missile and shield powerups, or the current process where powerups are generated by dead planes. Current item spawn system + missiles and shields = random death.