Dodgeball Returns

[VAN1SH1NG]

On AltitudeRank.com Dodgeball Test server..

Finally rewrote the parts of dodgeball that got broken a long time ago due to a change in the stat tracking. Believe it is working now but want to keep it on a separate test server for a little while before adding to regular servers. When testing I use a copy of the database so your rating does not matter here. Last copy was made awhile ago so may be very different ratings that what you have now.

Most importantly need to figure out if this is going to be biplane only or open it up to any other planes. It currently still allows all planes to be used. Also need to decide if planes should get larger over time (size resets each round). When two decent players going at it 1v1 it can be real difficult to get a hit so I am leaning towards increasing plane size slightly probably starting around 2 minutes into a round.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Turned on auto spec for randas and emp loopy (acid still allowed). Will see how it goes with these off to determine if other planes will be blocked from dodgeball.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Due to turret range problems I made the map a little less wide. For some reason the turrets do not have the correct range and it was a little too easy to get killed on the center line. Lowering the range value made it so the turrets did not even get close to reaching center. So basically had to adjust map width to match the range turrets were actually shooting at.

The map width reduction should help lower the difficulty to hit anyway without having to rely as much on increasing plane size.

Turrets on top and bottom were removed since they are no longer needed due to map changes. Also bottom turrets were keeping loose balls from bouncing across too much.

Hopefully can get the new map testing tonight or tomorrow and get it up on regular ladder servers soon.

edit: seems pretty decent. Explodets are no longer allowed as real op, especially on smaller map. I added a couple small circles/obstables to the bottom middle area to prevent bouncing it straight up and down. Makes it a bit diffiicult to try to pick it up if it gets stuck right at bottom middle but think it is for the best. Also greatly helps you to avoid stalling and drifting over across the middle line.

[TwistedCookie]

We demand a dodgeball league or some like to call it ADL.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Due to not being able to provide consistent time between being tagged and getting put in spec, I am removing the ability to tag after getting tagged.

Will only take a few seconds to add the 1 line code change as just need to ignore any hits from those with 0 lives. EU already up so probably will update US now and EU later today after no one is playing on EU.

Other planned changes:
Multiple lives instead of multiple rounds.. mostly to get rid of the waiting time between rounds

Looking for some feedback on some other things:

Plane balance... Bombers throw speed is a bit OP. Should we still consider making db biplane only? Or should other changes be make to balance the planes? I think if bombers are left in, time before catching a throw will need to be reduced from 1s to 0.9s or 0.8s.

Tag streaks... Would you to see bonuses for getting a certain number of tags before an out? This change would be delayed until I make it so you have a set number of lives vs multiple rounds. Tag streak awards would likely be something like 4 tags: ability to spawn as randa for 30s, 6 tags: extra life , 6 tags: ability to spawn as whale for 20s, 8 tags: add a life to a team-mate with 0 lives left.

Ratings... Should the points awarded be primarily based on individual performance? This would result in you getting +3 points for every tag and losing 3 points every time you are eliminated (or maybe as high as 5 points for each). The main reason for this change is that it is mostly an individual rather than team game. Plus it helps to not have to worry as much if someone on team gets disconnected. There may be a match bonus as well where you would get +/- 10 points based on winning or losing the match. Match bonus might not be applied if a player disconnects early in the match and does not rejoin.

Disconnects... Currently disconnecting = loss of line. I am leaning towards making ratings based on individual performance so that disconnects don't matter much and lives can be taken away from disconnecting player. But otherwise not sure how they should be handled. Got to start taking lives away if d/c as it is not fair to those in game if a player is not spawned. I may make it that for every 15s you are disconnected you lose a life. If you happen to be the only person remaining on your team you will likely lose all your remaining lives after the first 15s so the other team doesn't have to fly around waiting for d/c player to return.


Feels like I forgot a couple things I meant to include here so may update this post later as I remember.

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Tag streaks... Would you to see bonuses for getting a certain number of tags before an out? This change would be delayed until I make it so you have a set number of lives vs multiple rounds. Tag streak awards would likely be something like 4 tags: ability to spawn as randa for 30s, 6 tags: extra life , 6 tags: ability to spawn as whale for 20s, 8 tags: add a life to a team-mate with 0 lives left.

Timed tag streaks would be meaningless for randa as players could hold the ball for the entire duration of the streak (other team hold ball during your randa). Possession directed streak seems to make your own team hold out the ball for whale teammate to push across the line.

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Ratings... Should the points awarded be primarily based on individual performance? This would result in you getting +3 points for every tag and losing 3 points every time you are eliminated (or maybe as high as 5 points for each). The main reason for this change is that it is mostly an individual rather than team game. Plus it helps to not have to worry as much if someone on team gets disconnected. There may be a match bonus as well where you would get +/- 10 points based on winning or losing the match. Match bonus might not be applied if a player disconnects early in the match and does not rejoin.

The ability to avoid being hit should also be a factor to a lesser degree. (on 4v4) Being the first eliminated loses points, being second to last eliminated loses less points, 2nd on team gains points and last man standing gains more points.

WTB shot clock 12s

[JWhatever]

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Tag streaks...

What would happen after that 30 secs? Force spec the player?
Imo that could lead into more sudden ball losses and problems than giving an advantage.

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Multiple lives instead of multiple rounds..

I personally don't mind the waiting time and with lives, you couldn't have those great showdowns.

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Plane balance...

Not only bomber throw speed but also the spam. I get it that in a 4v1 the team with more players should have an advantage but the amount of spam from 4 bombers is plain annoying. That being said, I've yet to see a 4v4 bip only game, can't really comment on how spammy that would be.

Try having a limited amount of bombers per side? 1 or 2 per team?

-J

[VAN1SH1NG]

Originally Posted by JWhatever

What would happen after that 30 secs? Force spec the player?
Imo that could lead into more sudden ball losses and problems than giving an advantage.

Yes force spec, but I'd probably not spec them until they throw the ball if they have it. Alternatively, and easier to implement, I could give a few spawns with the plane instead.

Originally Posted by JWhatever

I personally don't mind the waiting time and with lives, you couldn't have those great showdowns.

There would still be great showdowns at the end of the match? Almost everyone seems to be in favor of the switch to multiple lives.

Originally Posted by JWhatever

Not only bomber throw speed but also the spam. I get it that in a 4v1 the team with more players should have an advantage but the amount of spam from 4 bombers is plain annoying. That being said, I've yet to see a 4v4 bip only game, can't really comment on how spammy that would be.

Try having a limited amount of bombers per side? 1 or 2 per team?

Limited number of a plane per team would be a pain to enforce. I don't think bomber spam is very op. 4v1 HC should be just as effective as the bomber spam. To me it is all about the throw speed

[VAN1SH1NG]

DB map is now a circle. This mostly is to make the ball more easily roll across the line. It will be harder to hold the ball on your side.

Plane sizes now increase over time and reset back to normal after each round ends. I don't really know when to start and how often to increase size so will likely have to tweak the numbers.

Time into round : plane scale
90s : 105
130s: 110
170s: 115
210s: 120

I assume it will be rare for plane scale to get past 110, but will have to see next time we play.

As stated in previous post (and now implemented), you are now unable to tag anyone after you are eliminated.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Added streak bonuses for testing. Current a steak of 2 earns 1 randa spawn and a streak of 4 earns one whale spawn. It repeats at 6 and 8 although don't expect anyone to get that high.

Steak carries over to next round. Resets to 0 if you lose a life for any reason (tag, turret, d/c). After you earn a spawn with randa or whale you get to keep it even if you get eliminated after earning it.

If you use it at the end of a round and never get eliminated it still counts as the spawn and you will not be able to respawn as that plane next round.

[mikesol]

Randa + Whale for streaks is really bad imo. It makes it so the dominant people are *even more* dominant. Completely breaks the mode.

[Clapon]

Originally Posted by mikesol

Randa + Whale for streaks is really bad imo. It makes it so the dominant people are *even more* dominant. Completely breaks the mode.

quote for truth

[mikesol]

Also - if you are going to increase plane size you need to implement a ball hold timer. Strategy can basically be just hold and wait for plane size to increase if you are up players.

[Aki1024]

There is no reason to continue playing 1v1 vs randa. If you don't have enough team mates to outright spam their side to kill their randa, there is no reason to fight. The game is lost. gg.

Also got killed by touching a wall. Are the walls suppose to deal damage to the player?

[VAN1SH1NG]

Personally disagree but if majority do not like it I will consider removing streak bonuses or bumping up the required #. It is a nice reward but only one spawn. Just makes killing more important. Not hard to take out a randa or whale when only 1 spawn. Same with holding with killing being important. The new map makes it a lot harder to keep on your side so I see very little need for a hold timer. Seems like it would overcomplicate things since kills handle the issue relatively well already.

Walls deal no damage so you had to have been killed by the other team. I mean there is a really tiny chance you could have hit a turret inside the wall but they are far enough inside you should never take dmg. Should be no problem to kill a randa 1v1. They are good at dodging balls but easy to kill.

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Walls deal no damage so you had to have been killed by the other team.

Check the logs then. I got killed via crash.

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Should be no problem to kill a randa 1v1. They are good at dodging balls but easy to kill.

1v1 randa vs HC when I can't get close to them, they'll get the ball from me easily.

[XX1]

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Personally disagree but if majority do not like it I will consider removing streak bonuses or bumping up the required #. It is a nice reward but only one spawn. Just makes killing more important. Not hard to take out a randa or whale when only 1 spawn. Same with holding with killing being important. The new map makes it a lot harder to keep on your side so I see very little need for a hold timer. Seems like it would overcomplicate things since kills handle the issue relatively well already.

ok streak bonuses feel like COD or something...stahp

It becomes quite difficult once the game is down to only two people left. The better killer will not only get the OP planes but also the ball because the circular map forces the ball to the other side.
Explodet is completely broke here. If you get that plane you control can control everything. Stall people for an easy shot, pull them over to get killed, force enemies away from ball spawn, bars etc. Miranda can dance all day and kill if used well....

the hold timer is for the plane increase that happens as the game goes on. Players can stall until the scale is at 120% and have a very easy target to shoot at. Yes it is now harder to keep the ball on your side, but if you are a decent killer you can exploit the plane size increase and have strong planes to re-spawn as, if you do finally get shot down.

EDIT: I did play the latest version._. ... but just confirmed myself it is passes, not kills.

I personally don't want a kill focused game mode, we have Death Match for that... I believe there are other things to be learned from Dodge ball besides senseless spam

[VAN1SH1NG]

Seems the top/bottom turrets can do damage for some reason even though they shouldn't. Will work on this tonight. (edit: nvm tired so tomorrow morning)

I would be more likely to remove the streak bonuses than add a hold timer (very unlikely). After playing several matches on the new map early today there was no evidence at all of streak bonuses being a problem but will continue to monitor them for now. Most likely will at least bump up to 3/5 from the current 2/4 required streaks, but will leave it as is for now to better evaluate how it affects the game.

[JWhatever]

Play the most recent version before commenting.
You get streaks by tagging enemies, not by pew pewing.

You can kill yourself as a heavy by shooting at the wall while being next to it.

Would it be possible to have lines in middle to indicate the exact turret killzone?

-J

[mikesol]

Originally Posted by JWhatever

Play the most recent version before commenting.
You get streaks by tagging enemies, not by pew pewing.

You can kill yourself as a heavy by shooting at the wall while being next to it.

Would it be possible to have lines in middle to indicate the exact turret killzone?

-J

It was hard to tell the killing vs tagging thing as a spectator of the latest mode. XX2 was even playing the latest mode and we both thought that it was killing at first.

Re: Vanish - without a hold timer and increased plane size you pretty much drag out end games of games that are "competitive." People just sit there and wait until the other plane grows large enough to hit without an issue.

Saying "just kill them" is pretty irrelevant for a bunch of reasons. 1) They're trying to kill you. 2) If you get too close to mid you're dead so you have to be focused on dodging which doesn't make them an easy target to kill. 3) If they are up a man you're now *even more* screwed as they can team up and if you kill one the other can just pick up the ball.

Also - streak bonuses are obviously more broken for larger games than smaller ones. Regardless - they still feel really lame to me. I don't think having it so one player can have huge advantages is particularly fun for anyone (considering how easily people like XX2 can win games without it). Why do we need special bonuses for going on streaks anyway? That just makes the game less fun.

[Clam]

1.
I know you never listen to anything I say, but I also don't like the idea of streak bonuses. As others said, why give a clearly dominant player additional help? To make the round/game end faster? That could be a weird sort of logic, but that's the only real reason I'd support.

If you're really into streak spawns, if anything you should have a player's streak draw a penalty by giving the bonus to an opponent. But giving someone a randa spawn just makes the game much more dreary.

2.
Yeah, hold timer! I was in the middle of typing when I accidentally refreshed and saw that mike had posted exactly what i was going to say.

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by JWhatever

Play the most recent version before commenting.

I have. My post was within 15m of playing.

Originally Posted by JWhatever

You get streaks by tagging enemies, not by pew pewing.

Not new information. I'm fully aware of how streaks are earned.

Originally Posted by JWhatever

You can kill yourself as a heavy by shooting at the wall while being next to it.

I was a biplane, not a bomber.

[Mulu]

So, if the current streak system is beneficial to the people already winning, would a system beneficial to the people losing a round be more appropriate? I hereby suggest allowing one life of a randa or whale spawn for a player in a 1v3 or 1v2, for example. This would allow a player to even the odds by getting at least one elimination from that spawn and allows players with bad teammates to have a better chance. Tournament rules can be separate, but for ladder at least this seems a good idea, more can and should be discussed.

Another problem I see is a lack of strategic points of interest, as in fact there is currently only one, the ball. I hereby suggest that we add a health spawn under the ball. This benefits people when they pick up the ball and adds something interesting to the game. It is a place where both teams can use it and allows for more varied gameplay as it will remain contested throughout the match. It is a risk to go for it and it will bait out fights. As it is right now players strategically may choose to not shoot the enemy so they don't change planes or to hold the ball to wait out plane size increases, I feel there needs to be something more added to change things up and this could help but a more creative idea may be needed.

A dodgeball multi-life mode would be interesting as well. Currently it is "Dodgeball 1-life" but a cool twist could be to bump it up to "Dodgeball 3-life" and see what becomes of it. It could be scored differently, whereby you'd get points for both eliminations and for being the winning team at the end of a round, or however else can be thought of.

There is lots of potential with Dodgeball and it is important to constantly imagine new features and changes that could shape it into a true competitive mode or simply a fun way to pass the time for the purposes of allowing enough players to gather to start rated ball.

p.s. im kinda dumb so my ideas might be cooler or less cooler than described, you haz been warned, gl hf

[Woofy]

How about a game where there are no advantages for streaking.

Does real dodgeball have a feature like this.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Unranked support added. Start tournament in lobby (by admin or /votestarttournament) and then change map to db_beta (by admin or /votechangemap).

Strongly considering blocking rev. Don't really want to block it but the fact it can easily rev along the edges and always be max distance away seems like too much. Any opinions on rev?

[Moon]

If you're going to ban rev.. might as well ban bomber at the same time.

[Fartface]

Don't ban rev! There's nothing op about it. I think it's good for some dodging and avoiding stalls but it actually leaves you more vulnerable; it's easier to hit a revving target because they have less control over their change in speed and turning

[VAN1SH1NG]

Oh its OP for sure, maybe you haven't played against anyone who uses it properly in DB.

If you put the rear of the plane against the wall you can change directions very quickly. Thats why it is OP. Just hug the wall and you are max distance always + quick change of direction.

[sky]

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

Oh its OP for sure, maybe you haven't played against anyone who uses it properly in DB.

If you put the rear of the plane against the wall you can change directions very quickly. Thats why it is OP. Just hug the wall and you are max distance always + quick change of direction.

I disagree I think rev isnt op at all in DB and I've played it quite abit, I also seem to disagree with everyone about killstreaks, its from gettin people out and I think its really easy to kill a randa because everyone uses acid hc or bomber which all kill them easily enough bs about "they're trying to dodge so they cant kill" lol thats just dumb the kill streaks are nice, and I think the idea of having a timer on the ball is pointless because of the killing aspect, very well put together vanishing