Soneji's Thread of Insight

[Soneji]

**wasn't room for the full title, which should read as follows**
Uncle Soneji's Thread of Insight into Indefensible Tactics, Quagmired in Greenhorns' Questions to which Old Hands Offer Pedantic Panacea

Now I can't pretend to have any of the above advertised insight, but would like this thread to function as a sort of repository/sounding board, in which we can all (hopefully) glean some tidbits that'll sharpen our game.

So without further ado, this week's topic:

Team Composition in Ball

Replies are encouraged, responses to which should result in rejoinders, which in turn may generate reactions resulting in retorts, which (should be) answered with ripostes.

[Soneji]

My understanding is that a competitive ball team should always consist of:

2 whales
2 loopy
1 randa

This leaves a spot open for one bomber, biplane, loopy, or randa (anything but a third whale?).

How does each plane in this wild-card slot affect the team's strategy?

How do the roles of other planes change when playing with each of these planes?

[ryebone]

Compositions are map-dependent. Wide-open maps such as labyrinth or lost city only need 1 whale, tighter maps like asteroids can handle 3 whales just fine.

I do agree that there should be 1 randa and 1 randa only- its only job is to be a primary ballhandler.

Heavy cannon and acid are unique in that they're technically light planes, but play like heavies (rarely handle the ball).

Bombers are useless except when the other team is going >2 whales

[Tekn0]

I feel ACID + a SNIPER (preferrably a good HC than a Randa sniper) are the best options for dealing with a Time Anchor.

This game is about adapting, so no single team composition is going to guarantee you victory everytime. The other team often adapts as well.

[Cracker]

Originally Posted by ryebone

Bombers are useless except when the other team is going >2 whales

Don't agree with this. Bombers can be very useful in a lot of maps, especially in those with a lot of chokepoints to spam. Also if one of your whales is fairly offensive oriented, a bomber can restore the balance in defense.

[Mr Nice]

Well i think 2 whales can be used on labyrinth aswell.

[Slender]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice

Well i think 2 whales can be used on labyrinth aswell.

I think not. It's a very open map with little choke points but these are often the places where you'll mostly see the ball move, making it ideal for even a couple of good bombers, few loopies, an acid and your randa. Of course this isn't the only way to go but I think it fits best the map's layout.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Originally Posted by ryebone

Compositions are map-dependent. Wide-open maps such as labyrinth or lost city only need 1 whale, tighter maps like asteroids can handle 3 whales just fine.

I do agree that there should be 1 randa and 1 randa only- its only job is to be a primary ballhandler.

Heavy cannon and acid are unique in that they're technically light planes, but play like heavies (rarely handle the ball).

Bombers are useless except when the other team is going >2 whales

Laby and similar open maps like cross need two whales. The major problem is the D takes a big hit when the single whale goes down. On laby/cross it is more difficult to stay alive as it is harder to circle while staying protected. As whales are going to usually die more often you really need the second, especially to safely allow a whale to get involved in the offense. While whales are not as dominent on these maps, there can still be very effective. There are just less chokepoints on the maps that a whale can effectively control.

If any map can get by with one it is lostcity, but even then two usually is better. I don't like three whales on any map.

Slender I have yet to ever see a case where two bombers works well. Its a bad idea unless both players really can't play other planes effectively. Sure there will be the occasional game where a two bomber team is successful. But this is usually only due to the other team being less skilled or having bad team comp or chemistry.

As far as HC and acid, there is no reason to say they rarely handle the ball. Why would acid not handle the ball compared with emp loopy? Biplane is the second best plane to carry the ball and in specific situations where you need a bit of extra armor to push through a defense they can be even more effective.

In the ideal situation HC does play primarily a support role, sniping off the biggest threats to the ball carrier. But when a team lacks a solid randa or overall is composed of players who avoid the ball or are not so good at moving it, biplanes can easily step into the role of ball carrier. Even when HC plays the support role, they still need to be aware and willing to make runs and carry the ball when needed. Too many HCs in this game think they can focus 100% on killing and ignore the ball. If all you are going to do is kill you better be darn good at it. Only a couple players are actually good enough killers with HC to do this AND your team has to have good ball carriers. One ball carrier is never enough, need more than just a great randa... also requires smart ball carrying and solid passing from others if HC is only killing.

[ryebone]

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

As far as HC and acid, there is no reason to say they rarely handle the ball. Why would acid not handle the ball compared with emp loopy? Biplane is the second best plane to carry the ball and in specific situations where you need a bit of extra armor to push through a defense they can be even more effective.

In the ideal situation HC does play primarily a support role, sniping off the biggest threats to the ball carrier. But when a team lacks a solid randa or overall is composed of players who avoid the ball or are not so good at moving it, biplanes can easily step into the role of ball carrier. Even when HC plays the support role, they still need to be aware and willing to make runs and carry the ball when needed. Too many HCs in this game think they can focus 100% on killing and ignore the ball. If all you are going to do is kill you better be darn good at it. Only a couple players are actually good enough killers with HC to do this AND your team has to have good ball carriers. One ball carrier is never enough, need more than just a great randa... also requires smart ball carrying and solid passing from others if HC is only killing.

Coming from personal experience: because acid is a duration effect unlike emp, I'm not often trying to hit planes, I'm trying to hit chokes that enemies will fly through. I'm usually flying ahead of the ball, focusing on areas like the enemy spawn, around the goal, around powerups, etc. It's always nice for a pushing team when incoming enemy reinforcements are already down to 1/2 life. I might've worded my initial comment a little too strongly... acid should usually handle the ball less than an emp loopy when played effectively, and should be lower ballhandling priority as well.

Fully agree with your assessment on HC. Just wanted to emphasize that recoilless is a much more effective ballcarrier than HC, for obvious reasons. I'd prefer any HC on my team to focus strictly on killing and not worry so much about the ball unless the situation demands it. If there isn't enough ball movement... someone had better switch to loopy then.

Also IMO HA whale is the second-best ball carrier in the game. No justifications needed.

[Clam]

Might be just me but I feel like I've been seeing more 2 randa comps lately. It's effective when the team they're up against is bad at killing and/or bad at def, e.g. vs 1 whale who can't cover 2 lanes at once (ahem hem hi). Ball movement gets super quick and can cover half a map before anyone starts going back to defend.

[Oyster]

Any plane can (and should) handle the ball if the pilot knows what to do.

There is definitely room for a bomber on a team, possibly even two if they are both very skilled.

Other exceptions for more than one bomber is if your line up is something like one whale, domber, flak bomber, loop x2, randa. Domber can control defensive chokes and kind of fills the missing explodet's role. With two loopies you get both emp and acid. Randa does normal job, maybe even floats offsides more often for cheap goals.

Double randa setups are completely viable in ball as long as the randas work together. If they are always cutting each other off or competing for goals then its no good.

[Soneji]

Good contributions to the team composition discussion.

**I'm not sure if I should start a new thread for every topic, so we'll continue on here until someone tells me otherwise.**

This week's topic: Around the Goal

The general strategy, as I understand it, is to score the goal (offense) or prevent the goal (defense).

On offense what tactics have you found effective? Should a plane fly ahead of the ball carrier and get into position to receive a pass and/or kill enemies blocking the goal? Or follow the ball carrier, killing enemies and picking up a dropped ball?

On defense, the default strategy seems to be move the ball down and away from the goal. When is it useful to break this rule? What of positioning to defend the goal?

Share with us your tips, tricks and tactics for scoring and defending.

[Oyster]

Originally Posted by Soneji

Good contributions to the team composition discussion.

**I'm not sure if I should start a new thread for every topic, so we'll continue on here until someone tells me otherwise.**

This week's topic: Around the Goal

The general strategy, as I understand it, is to score the goal (offense) or prevent the goal (defense).

On offense what tactics have you found effective? Should a plane fly ahead of the ball carrier and get into position to receive a pass and/or kill enemies blocking the goal? Or follow the ball carrier, killing enemies and picking up a dropped ball?

On defense, the default strategy seems to be move the ball down and away from the goal. When is it useful to break this rule? What of positioning to defend the goal?

Share with us your tips, tricks and tactics for scoring and defending.

I took some of these from my hunter guide.

Offense:
- Possessing space is the safest way to advance the ball. If you fly ahead of your ball carrier and claim that area, you are buying them space to safely fly forward
- Killing isn't necessary on offense, but it certainly helps keep the push and ball carrier alive if the other team is dead.
- To start a push, target enemy explodets first since they have the largest impact on defense, followed by loopies/randa since they are easy to kill and will delay/prevent any quick transitions if there is a turnover.
- Passing is the fastest way to move the ball. If you pass to open space, it lets the receiver make some evasive moves of his own before being locked into everyone's radar. Passes to randas should try to be made a warp ahead.
- Passing directly to a teammate is the safer play; however, you should be careful to not pass to someone who is about to die or in position to be swarmed if they catch the ball.
- Flying in front of the ball carrier for passes can be tricky, but is often the best way to progress the ball. Be careful of sneaky planes trying to intercept and be ready to double back on a turnover because you will be way out of position if you are flying ahead. Also, ballhogs don't always pass.
- To push, shoot at targets in front of your ball handler so he has room to advance (duh).
- Shields are tailor made for pushes and should always lead the pack.
- Shoot and fly forward of the ball, but be wary of sneaky defenders sliding in behind to snipe the ball carrier.

In the red zone:
- The best way to help your team score in the red zone is by leading the ball to kill enemies, soak up bullets intended for the handler and provide passing options.
- One person should trail behind the ball to push from behind and clean up any loose balls/delay turnover transitions.
- Being in a heavier plane means dunking is more viable. Dunking is very safe since there is no threat of turnover due to interception or a bad shot as long as you are healthy.
- Don't rush the attack or force any shots that you know aren't going to score.
- Flying offsides is a great way to cherry pick a goal.

[Clam]

Quick tip #1: If you see me clear one way on def, you should probably take note of it and clear the other way when you are in a similar situation.

Quick tip #2: Worry about people not holding the ball. Many planes in this game have the perk enabled that allows them to pass to an open plane in front of the goal.

[MagneticDuck`]

Originally Posted by Clam

Quick tip #2: Worry about people not holding the ball. Many planes in this game have the perk enabled that allows them to pass to an open plane in front of the goal.

"the perk" enabled that "allows" them to pass to an open plane in front of the goal? I'm not even sure where to start to explain the extent to which I have no idea what you're saying x)

This is a great initiative though, learning / remembering lots of stuff that I should concentrate on in my ball games. Thanks guys.

[wolf'j'max]

Originally Posted by MagneticDuck`

"the perk" enabled that "allows" them to pass to an open plane in front of the goal? I'm not even sure where to start to explain the extent to which I have no idea what you're saying x)

This is a great initiative though, learning / remembering lots of stuff that I should concentrate on in my ball games. Thanks guys.

Just because someone's not carrying the ball doesn't mean they're irrelevant.

[XX1]

Originally Posted by MagneticDuck`

"the perk" enabled that "allows" them to pass to an open plane in front of the goal? I'm not even sure where to start to explain the extent to which I have no idea what you're saying x)

This is a great initiative though, learning / remembering lots of stuff that I should concentrate on in my ball games. Thanks guys.

so like

lets take TBD for example. Let's say you are an explodet (remote/director perk) and you are defending at the base against an enemy push. Basically if you manage to stall the enemy bomb carrier(By stalling I mean while the bomb runner is not above/ near the base to get splash damage), you have done most of your job. There is no bomb passing mechanic in team base destruction. You do not necessarily have to kill the runner. On the other hand with ball, you can pass the ball to whoever you want. This makes ball more (idk the word) intense? Especially around the goal where you (the explodet defending) have to take into consideration every enemy plane in the place.

[MagneticDuck`]

I feel like I'm really not understanding something here.

What I was asking is what this perk that "allows" people to pass to an open plane in front of the goal is. I understand how ball works, I just have trouble figuring out what clam said x(

[XX1]

Originally Posted by MagneticDuck`

I feel like I'm really not understanding something here.

What I was asking is what this perk that "allows" people to pass to an open plane in front of the goal is. I understand how ball works, I just have trouble figuring out what clam said x(

By "perk" he just means passing. All planes can pass the ball

[Soneji]

Gather 'round kiddies, Uncle Soneji's serving up another titillating tidbit of tactical trickery (and this time he's actually contributing*!). *kinda

As many of you are painfully aware, I've been stubbornly playing bomber for the past few years, hoping to realize some latent potential lurking beneath its “dumb bomb” epithet. While I cannot claim to have fully realized the bomber's true capabilities, I can offer this little piece of a crumb of knowledge, fallen from the feast-hall table of the Alti Gods and subsequently swept into the bin out back, where I, a poor and undeserving wretch, happened upon the tiniest morsel of insight into the radiant glory of the Uber-Bomber.

I've read mled and hollywood's guide and found it a useful introduction to the plane. However, there was one line I kept coming back to: Spam with a purpose. Its straightforward simplicity belies the profundity of this statement. While I hope that your responses will further flesh out the nuances of what it means to deliver purposed spam (e.g. choke points, map control), I want to discuss the spray pattern of nades.

A fully charged bomber can unleash an arc of four nades with ultra; three (plus one shortly after) with turbo. If flying in a straight line, the nades follow a similar arc resulting in a small area being completely devastated. Each nade lands in a quick succession on the same spot. Let's call this a synchronized arc. While this can be effective in dealing large amounts of damage, it is also rather limited in its area of effect.

If flying in a not-straight line the spray pattern changes. Duh. These patterns became more apparent after the widescreen update and I began thinking about controlling or shaping the patterns. I've found that quick up/down movements of the plane's nose coupled with a quick burst of nades can result in interesting and potentially useful patterns. Let's call this a diffused arc. While this spray pattern doesn't offer the same concentrated damage of the sync arc, the AoE is greatly increased.

Picture, like...a floating triangle whose points are nades.

So that's it. Just a crumb.

[WilliamDodd]

should i make a guide to loopy thread? i think it would be quite good

[WilliamDodd]

well it would be just a guide to emp

[Slender]

Honestly, I remember back in 2010 I played bomber carelessly, with absolutely no purpose of understanding the mechanics one can achieve by playing smart. Over a year later, it came to my knowledge that ladder existed and so I joined to soon notice there were specifically two outstanding bombers at the time: mled and nadespam. I had known that mled wrote a guide on bomber but I found it to falter when actually trying to implement it on an actual game. Therefore I literally sat hours spectating ladder games and just learning. Nothing anyone has ever written as a guide here has worked the very least for me, because there's a humongous gap between reading something nice and well structured and how to actually put to the work the things you have read.

Also, SweetDeltoidz often coached me on mumble as I played ladder games, which is still far from reading a limited guide.

[Kafka]

Originally Posted by WilliamDodd

should i make a guide to loopy thread? i think it would be quite good

No.... that happened 5 years ago

[Soneji]

Originally Posted by Slender

I had known that mled wrote a guide on bomber but I found it to falter when actually trying to implement it on an actual game. Therefore I literally sat hours spectating ladder games and just learning.

I, too, have found that actively watching a player in ladder can be more instructive than any guide.

/chase [PLAYERNAME] is my favorite teacher.

That being said, as difficult as it is to articulate in writing the subtle nuances of the game, I still think it can be helpful.

[Soneji]

Originally Posted by Kafka

No.... that happened 5 years ago

I'd read an updated guide and/or DODD's take on emp.

[Hollywood]

Originally Posted by Soneji

I've read mled and hollywood's guide and found it a useful introduction to the plane. However, there was one line I kept coming back to: Spam with a purpose. Its straightforward simplicity belies the profundity of this statement. While I hope that your responses will further flesh out the nuances of what it means to deliver purposed spam (e.g. choke points, map control), I want to discuss the spray pattern of nades.

A fully charged bomber can unleash an arc of four nades with ultra; three (plus one shortly after) with turbo. If flying in a straight line, the nades follow a similar arc resulting in a small area being completely devastated. Each nade lands in a quick succession on the same spot. Let's call this a synchronized arc. While this can be effective in dealing large amounts of damage, it is also rather limited in its area of effect.

If flying in a not-straight line the spray pattern changes. Duh. These patterns became more apparent after the widescreen update and I began thinking about controlling or shaping the patterns. I've found that quick up/down movements of the plane's nose coupled with a quick burst of nades can result in interesting and potentially useful patterns. Let's call this a diffused arc. While this spray pattern doesn't offer the same concentrated damage of the sync arc, the AoE is greatly increased.

Picture, like...a floating triangle whose points are nades.

So that's it. Just a crumb.

I am happy you liked my play on words in that guide. Yes you are very correct, at the time of writing that. It was called nade flicking, also tied with flak flicking. Your speed, and turning all effect how the nades and tail gun fire. I used to make up funny names like "Dragon Tail" to assume the flak tailgun was like a physical tail, as it moved depending on your turning, thus like a dragons tail. Ultimately, yes you can spray with the nades, snipe with them, and do pretty much whatever you want with them, limited to the amount of damage you need to kill someone of course. I consider nades to be two dimensional in the sense that you can use it for single target, or multi target.

"Spam with a purpose" is something I still use to play whale with even now. In the context of that guide. It was meant to indicate not to be wasteful of what you killed. Given your ability to accurately flick I saved a number of nades depending on the situation and health of the target. Even to say I would completely ignore a low target (meaning not in danger of effecting the current outcome of the situation) because they were simply not worth the mana/energy to kill them. In most of those cases, I would do more good letting another teammate take that role while I pre-position for middle map control. That person who dies will respawn in front of me either way. I find as my role is to keep the enemies pressure low, which is far easier to deal with when you look at pressure around the ball.

For example, if your plan was to have a teammate kill the loopy, then respawn kill them. That was something I liked to do when possible, but goes against the spam with a purpose rule. My role would dictate that I should kill the high priority target in middle-middle(center middle or center enemy goal) map area. biplanes/bombers, or whales were high priority targets. Depending on the team, or situation. Assume I killed a whale, and someone killed a loopy or biplane. I would follow up after killing something, to block a direct choke back to the goal area as usually the ball carrier, can win with a two man advantage. A very common tactic as a whale or bomber.

For example, I would see a low health loopy or whatever, flick a single nade to kill it, then while it's in the progress of being killed off engage by the nade you fired go for the next target. Simply by splitting each nade up, and knowing how much damage each do to each plane. This brings the depth of the meaning "spam with a purpose" or spam smart I guess I would call it now of days. As my later years with bomber, I ended up simply passing a target killing it with my tailgun and simultaneous using what else energy I have left to bait pressure a forward target and or kill it depending on what the team is focus firing. Something I had learned a long time ago from maimer, and had picked up because I liked the play style. "Shoot to survive" sums it up.

Upon taking one or two nades after killing the loopy, lets assume I was targeting a whale. After taking my pressure they will in most cases go defensive. I can then use that to force them into a position of my choosing, well to a point. Assuming the whale is good, they will know where I am, but cannot have the chance to deal with me, as they are most likely defending for the ball. From there I would switch to an engaging loopy to help with keeping the ball carrier safe. By that time another would be coming from top out of spawn, I would quickly flick a tailgun bullet upward towards a likely choke, or at them assuming they were already on screen. In most cases, I would have to deal with the person who just spawned, from there assuming we still have ball control, I would engage the whales. The meta has evolved into slower pushes, and the odd rush play. So I would have plenty of time to manage the above. Most of the successful pushes to a goal will be during a 1-2 man advantage that snowball.

I only play in tournaments, so I cannot say any of this is viable in ladder play. From watching ladder, I assume a hyper aggressive playstyle like nadespam or void are effective for ladder. As most of the things I mention talk about team synergy. During generation one of {ball} we use to run Nikon and myself, or even Anghell when he was online for the infamous double bomber.

Hopefully, I touched on what you wanted to know. I don't often like publicly stating my opinion, because people aren't nice. :P