Maps

[elxir]

Dearest ladder climbers,

Herein is a compilation of current ladder maps, proposed future maps, Trueskill shenanigans (ETA: ???), and a few reserved posts for my ever changing needs.

Please add your thoughts regarding any maps listed here, or any maps that you think deserve to be amongst this vaunted group.

Note: "Map xyz sucks" is not a valid post. I require detail.

Changelog:
5.28.11 - first round of Trueskill numbers calculated thanks to krawz and the dojo servers. see post number three.
5.23.11 - added tbd_metropolis and ball_decimal to vote (custom start_mapname)
8.16.11 - added tbd_leaf, ball_empire, and ball_pipedream_lite to vote (custom start_mapname)


ToC:
Post 1: current ladder maps
Post 2: potential maps
Post 3: Trueskill (ETA: ???)
Post 4: reserved
Post 5: reserved


Ladder 1, 2 (TBD)

Rotation [custom_start random] (14 maps):

Asteroids
Bowserscastle
Cave
Core (*)
Fallout
Focus (*)
Grotto (*)
Heights
Justice
Mayhem (*)
Lostcity
Scrapyard
Underpark
Volcano

(*) = neutral bomb map

Vote [custom start_mapname] (5 maps):

Assembly (*)
Leaf
Metropolis
Origamipark
Sanctum
Tron
Woods

(*) = neutral bomb map

Test [custom test_mapname] (3 maps):

Maze
Hivepark
Typepark

Ladder 3, 4 (Ball)

Rotation [custom_start random] (16 maps):

Asteroids
Cave
Core
Cross
Darkwar
Funnelpark
Grotto
Hardcourt
Ice
Labyrinth
Lostcity
Mayhem2
Maze
Planepark
Snow
Ufo

Vote [custom start_mapname] (3 maps):

Atmosphere
Cloudcity
Decimal
Empire
Pipedream_lite
Sideshow

Test [custom test_mapname (6 maps):

Ocean
Pixelized
Pulse
Subterranean
Thorns
Tron

[elxir]

Potential maps:

TBD:


Ball:

ball_hydro http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6631

Notes:

ball_hydro needs some minor tweaks before it is ready (eg testing).

[elxir]

Trueskill:

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showt...ight=trueskill

Trueskill rankings of Ball Dojo #1, server and data provided by krawz, painstakingly calculated by yours truly:

Map name, Trueskill rating (sorted high to low):

1. ball_planepark 27.79397764
2. ball_darkwar 26.8050902
3. ball_asteroids 26.62526594
4. ball_labyrinth 25.03774025
5. ball_cave 24.44307261
6. ball_snow 24.38988017
7. ball_pegs 24.3337774
8. ball_mayhem2 23.8124179
9. ball_grotto 23.7496527
10. ball_sewer 23.40812517
11. ball_core 23.17545236
12. ball_volcano 23.12434699
13. ball_atmosphere 22.98263252
14. ball_risk 22.94521085
15. ball_cloudcity 22.39564111
16. ball_arcade 22.38033804
17. ball_maze 22.35063287
18. ball_lostcity 20.31975743

Analysis (totally scientific):

The top ten maps were no surprise at all, with the obvious exceptions of ball_pegs at (7), and ball_sewer at (10). So, are these maps actually good?

Personally, I am not a huge fan of the miniature death pegs strewn throughout ball_pegs, or the hilariously tight confines of ball_sewer. However, due to their popularity on the most used ball server, I may feel compelled to add them to the ladder server if some support is shown. They are graphically sound, so that is no concern.

Next comes the issue of ball_cloudcity, ball_maze, and ball_lostcity. These maps all ranked in the bottom four, which is somewhat disconcerting as two of them are in the ball ladder rotation and the third (cloudcity) is voteable, and these ranked (15), (17), and (18), respectively on the Dojo server Trueskill. Now, maze and lostcity have been around forever, and I think they are good maps with some interesting strategies. In my limited exposure to cloudcity, I found it to be a well-designed map with not-so-well-designed graphics. In my opinion, they are all good maps - anyone else have a say for or against them?

[elxir]

Reservation!

[elxir]

I'll have thirteen beers to go.

[Nikon]

ball_tron moves up to vote custom start imo.

[[Y]]

Yo nublixir you forgot to log into the SSD account. Elixir doesn't run the ladder map project.

[Clapon]

Originally Posted by [Y]

Yo nublixir you forgot to log into the SSD account. Elixir doesn't run the ladder map project.

check back in a day i think hes gonna try and make a point about something

[elxir]

Edited a few posts. Read my beautiful words.

[elxir]

Added ball_decimal and tbd_metropolis to their respective voteable map pools (not test, not random).

I did not add them to test because, well, none of you ever want to test anything.

I will observe the outcome of this foolish course of action over the coming days and make any necessary changes.

[Nikon]

Do you think you could do the same for tron? not trying to be a pest, just asking a question.

[Mandrad]

Tx a lot
I dont ladder so... please bring me feedback on this.

Tx again

[elxir]

Added lots of stuff to the Trueskill post (number three). Read and comment!

[Ajuk999]

Please remove hardcourt from the map-pool, no one on ladder likes it. If you can't do that at least remove it from the random rotation.

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by Ajuk999

Please remove hardcourt from the map-pool, no one on ladder likes it. If you can't do that at least remove it from the random rotation.

you're an idiot

[Fartface]

Harcourt is the best of the ball maps imo

[MajorPayne257]

My recommendations:

• Remove Ice (personal vendetta)

• Remove Lostcity (can't argue with the numbers, oh and it sucks)

• I like Cloudcity, but I feel something could be done with the top left and right corners. Not sure what's going on up there.

• I'm not a huge fan of maze, but I think it's a good ball map and would like to see it stay in the rotation.

• I don't think pegs should go on ladder, even though I do enjoy it.

• I don't mind sewer so I'm indifferent on that one.

• Oh and I don't mind hardcourt.

[krawz]

I removed ball_sewer from Dojo a while back. Not sure if that has any effect on the data shown here. Just FYI.

[Nikon]

May I ask why you do not like CloudCity Graphics?

[elxir]

Originally Posted by Nikon

May I ask why you do not like CloudCity Graphics?

They just look like MS paint, which I don't really mind but I think it turns people off. Also, there is a distinct feces shade to them.

I like the layout, though perhaps the goal area could be mildly adjusted (three very close proximity objects to the goal).

[zz-]

Please PLEASE just move the spawns a little closer to the middle of the map on hardcourt. decent map with decent everything, but I played two hardcourt matches in a row, a 27 minute and 22+ minute one the other night.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by zz-

Please PLEASE just move the spawns a little closer to the middle of the map on hardcourt. decent map with decent everything, but I played two hardcourt matches in a row, a 27 minute and 22+ minute one the other night.

After sufficient testing in ladder (hooray) I do agree with this. I posted in the hardcourt thread and hopefully Nikon sees it. I am incapable of editing the map without making it look like someone got drunk and went crazy.

[Flexio]

Originally Posted by elxir

Potential maps:

TBD:

tbd_leaf http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6158

Ball:

...

[elxir]

Updated ball_decimal to its newest version.

I think it's good enough for rotation. Any thoughts?

[sunshineduck]

that map is demon spawn

[Solqom]

does that make me the devil?

(also thanks elxir, obviously i support this ^^)

[elxir]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

that map is demon spawn

I was very tempted to include a 100 percent legitimate and in no way forged quote from you thus pre-empting any post you would make.

[TwistedDuck]

can ball_clouds and ball_pebbles be added, if you think it needs any improvements, tell me

[rojo]

Motion to replace Lost City with Atmosphere

[elxir]

I have no problems adding a potentially unlimited number of maps to the ladder pool.

However, the overwhelmingly negative response to literally every new map ever added is cause for concern.

SSD had both rotations hovering at around 15-16 maps. I think anything more than 20 maps might be a bit much.

Adding more maps to be strictly map-voteable is a good possibility, but at the end of the day, it's mildly pointless if everyone just whines and soils their diapers instead of providing useful feedback.

I might just go with the tried and true method of ignoring the masses and doing whatever the heck I want.

[Dark_Sage]

And this is why people complain about hardcourt: http://www.altitudeladder.com/match....&mode=ball_6v6

40 minutes.

40.

****ing.

Minutes.

Anyway, I agree with what lix said about the reaction to new maps being concerning, but they are mostly legitimate complaints. then again, I don't think atmo and cloud city are that bad but some people do so to each their own.

[sunshineduck]

the quality of players in that ladder game is overwhelming

[Urpee]

Point being that the very same players will play literally any other map and not end up having anywhere near as long a game. ball_hardcourt's entry points are too friendly for defense - combined with all offensive paths having pretty narrow choke-points just before the goal defense positions. This is just bound to lead to long games.

Just look at the maps and check how far it is for defense to get to the goal on all these maps?

http://nimblygames.com/wiki/index.ph...=Official_Maps

Hartcourt it's literally short, if not clearly the shortest. There are some other newer maps that are closeish (ball_ice) but there is at least some obstruction (ball_ice being more open for offense and having hideable covers for randas down low). And there is literally no contest with many of the classical maps ball_hartcourt is the only map with spawns placed in the very corners of the map geometry. Norm is much more center.

Leave even this game aside. I dare wager if one looks at the average game length by maps, ball_hardcourt will be top of the pile, likely by quite a bit too. Balanced teams do play long on ball_hardcourt. 15 minute games on hardcourt is quite normal, while that is long for almost all other maps.

That is not sign of a good map but of a map that leads to defensive marathons.

I appreciate that ice for example needs a somewhat different approach to offense to get it to work, but hardcourt is too much for ladder. It may be a fine map for organized team play though, where you more likely have the communication to organize the kinds of pushes you need to score in a balance configuration on harcourt.

I think to make the map work for ladder, either offense needs to be eased (be making access paths to the goal more wide), or defense made just slightly less accessible (by either moving spawns or making approach harder by obstacles).

[sunshineduck]

alternatively, people could get better at this game and actually attempt to introduce a team concept into bladder

[Urpee]

Or alternatively some people (one person?) in power could actually get to their senses and realize that it's actually the map that's the problem here, not their supposed fantasy about how much people suck.

How about putting the spawn right in front of the goal and letting highly organized teams figure out how to break it down! Yeah, that's a solution. Er, not.

Sorry you are just trolling an actual issue, by blaming the players rather than fixing the map.

[sunshineduck]

well no, there are just players that suck and they are being punished for their bad play with long-ass matches. when played well with high-quality players, matches don't last longer than what is the norm (around ten minutes). it's bizarro world darkwar.

i firmly believe that balln hates this map because he is so highly rated that he always ends up with crappy players on his team, and hasn't really played it all that much with {ball}. i'm pretty sure he had fun on the map when he played against FC this past weekend, not sure if he'll chime in on whether or not it still sucked for him when he had a competent team. i have 0 respect for anyone else that has complained in the forums about the layout (not the brightness) of the map.

[sunshineduck]

let me put it this way: is the map horribly unforgiving for bad team play? absolutely. is ladder typically full of teams that have bad teamwork and do not communicate well? yup, that too. in my opinion, it's a way to introduce another level of competitiveness into ladder beyond individual play and ability to avoid costly mistakes. if you want hardcourt games to be shorter, communicate better with your team on pushes and make more intelligent clears rather than throwing it down and chasing after it straight into the defense on literally every play.

[Urpee]

As if team chat is a place, to, in-game, with a game ongoing, educate people on how to get the level of communication needed. That's what organized play is for! I think it rather educates people to yawn while speccing but whatever.

[sunshineduck]

i have no idea what that post means and/or is trying to accomplish

english plz?

[MajorPayne257]

It means that that level of communication is impossible to achieve in bladder unless the whole team is magically in mumble or something.

In other words, it's a fantasy that only comes true during organized matches. Ladder is not organized.