New Ball Ladder Map Test

[VAN1SH1NG]

I will soon add some maps to ladder to test them. Images are posted below to get an idea what is coming, but it is possible I tweak them slightly before they are added.

ball_cloud by Oyster


I updated collision outlines on Cloud, fixed goal locations, and blocked off a tiny area above spawns to prevent planes/ball from going into but there were otherwise no layout changes.

ball_midnight by Nikon updated by VAN1SH1NG (original)


Changes were mostly aimed at making the corners usable, bringing the map even more in line with mayhem2 like gameplay. In the original it looked like objects were thrown in the corners just so something was there. I also increased the height of the lower tunnels since they were awfully tight and opened up the middle a bit to encourage mid/upper areas to get more usage.

ball_empire by mandrad updated by VAN1SH1NG (original)


For those unaware mandrad created planepark and funnelpark. He also created various other concepts that were abandoned like firepark and empire. I recreated firepark as the concept seemed quite good. Empire is not as cohesive, so I'm not sure how well it will play. The primary issue with the original was the goals were way too close together, but moving them back onto the walls likely provides enough distance. The small area up top was also rather useless, so I added better protection. I'm not real sure about the middle with this map though.

ball_gears by brutal


Some changes have been made from the original version. The huge gear at bottom middle was replaced with several smaller objects. After seeing cloud and midnight play I decided to pull the goals off the wall as there was a good chance this map would also take too long (due to being a tall map). Other objects on the map were slightly resized, rotated, or moved a little but no other major layout changes.

Revised ball_swarm by Polio & Nikon updated by VAN1SH1NG
Link to screenshot since max 4 per post: http://www.planeball.com/files/ball_swarm.jpg

I seemed to be in the minority in that I enjoyed my original swarm revision. However, my 2nd version layout seems rather dull to play (although I have only had it come up once for me). I think I need to simply open up the lanes a bit with the previous version I had on ladder.

[JWhatever]

Can you change the map random counts so that the SL map pool maps have equal chance of showing up? Set them at 2 or 3 and leave the new maps and maps that are not on the pool at 1.

-J

[VAN1SH1NG]

I do not know that would be a welcomed change. Do you not think people will tire of playing less popular SL maps if their probability is increased (as you are asking to reduce counts of the most popular maps)?

I have always kept SL maps at minimum count of 2 other than warehouse to make sure they come up enough to practice them. I would also guess the current probabilities are also relatively close to how often each maps are played in SL. Hardly anyone ever actually picks to play cliff, for example, in SL so does that need to get played as much as maps that will commonly be chosen in SL?

As far as new maps I often start them out at 2 for up to the first 2-3 days and then either quickly drop to 1 or remove. This effectively has them see less play because it lets me more easily sit in ladder a few days with high chances of being able to watch gameplay on the new maps. If at 1 it is very possible they never come up when I am watching and get stuck on ladder longer even if they have major problems. I will put swarm at one being the map is not a significant change from a previously used version, but expect the others to be at 2 until I see them played at least 1 or 2 times.

[Slender]

Looking at ball_cloud I thought the top routes on each corner were a little too narrow but hey, there's ball_cryptic already. And the neutral powerups right beneath these routes may be a little too close to those rocksclouds. I can see many people crashing over there.

I have yet to try the map but this is just what I saw now.

[Raisin bran]

Nice to see some new maps.

Only concern looking at them is that they all seem to be generally speaking, open, but with lots of smallish objects (think ball_cliff). I say this in contrast to maps that seem to have a few "routes" or "channels" (think ball_hardcourt2).

Personally I think the latter style generally play better, but I'm sure that's a matter of taste. Just saying a mix of the two would be nice?

-Rai

[JWhatever]

Cause and effect? I personally don't like to pick maps that have been rarely played on when playing in leagues. I've never heard complaints that cliff or illumination comes up too much. However I have heard some rumbling on how we always play on the same roids - cave - grotto.

If you create arbitrary map preferences then we're slowly moving towards Counter Strike: from the 7 maps that are on the active map pool only dust2 is played in casual modes.

A better way for having multiple tiers of map preferences would be to include it in votes imho. Have a separate vote for "crowd favorite maps" containing maps that currently have 3-4 x multiplier and a normal vote for all maps.

I had a chat with goose about the SL maps a while ago and afaik we'll have a set map pool each week. Meaning that every one of the 20 maps will be available for play during the regular season (and might even be during playoffs).

If you don't like it as a permanent change, can we have it like so for the duration of SL?


As for the new maps here, I wouldn't mind having one day of testing these in ladder. As in, having new maps only.

-J

[VAN1SH1NG]

Originally Posted by Raisin bran

Only concern looking at them is that they all seem to be generally speaking, open, but with lots of smallish objects (think ball_cliff). I say this in contrast to maps that seem to have a few "routes" or "channels" (think ball_hardcourt2).

I think midnight fits your description well enough unless you really want a more restricted mid route(s). But for the most part midnight has more defined routes. Personally I think the layout of midnight will be very interesting although we still must discover if offense/defense are balanced appropriately for good game length.

Yes, the others are as you describe. Voice your opinion to Oyster, Jonus, and/or Brutal as they are who have been making maps recently. Or if there are any maps not on ladder that play the way you like then point them out. As with midnight and empire I tweak existing maps that just need a little bit of work. Not sure there are any maps like you describe that need just small tweaks though. Doodle could be made smaller I suppose but size changes are more time consuming.

Originally Posted by JWhatever

... I've never heard complaints that cliff or illumination comes up too much. However I have heard some rumbling on how we always play on the same roids - cave - grotto. ..

Seems the opposite to me. Some maps get complaints every time they come up and when, by random chance, a less popular map comes up more regularly than expected people aren't happy. I don't think I have once heard anyone complain we are playing the more popular maps too much.

That said I am certainly open to map pool changes. Your request just seems to contradict what I hear from most of the ladder community. I do like more map variety and will certainly consider it if others voice a similar opinion.

Originally Posted by JWhatever

A better way for having multiple tiers of map preferences would be to include it in votes imho. Have a separate vote for "crowd favorite maps" containing maps that currently have 3-4 x multiplier and a normal vote for all maps.

1) People will probably favor the crowd favorite map vote and we will see them played even more (although not as extreme, this is the reason there is not a no neutral vote for tbd).

2) People will more regularly vote /n wanting to vote the other map pool. It is possible to get stuck where neither side wants to give in and allow a vote to pass.

Originally Posted by JWhatever

I had a chat with goose about the SL maps a while ago and afaik we'll have a set map pool each week. Meaning that every one of the 20 maps will be available for play during the regular season (and might even be during playoffs).

Not sure what difference set vs random map pools makes unless certain pools are composed entirely of less popular maps. The fact is a handful of SL maps are virtually never picked even if they are in in map pools as often as the rest of the maps. Unless the match map pool is reduced in number from 5 to 3 or maybe even 4 we will not see these maps selected more than a couple times across the entire season.

[VAN1SH1NG]

I may also be adding ball_gears by Brutal. Layout seems fine although I am not sure about the dimensions. Again though the plan is a very quick test to check if these maps have any potential. If a map is way off it usually apparent after one game.

Also to counter the addition of several new test maps, I likely will briefly remove a few non-SL maps.

[VAN1SH1NG]

I have been waiting to get the bg image for cloud from oyster but have not received it yet. I am going to just add midnight and empire to the US server now and they will be on EU tomorrow. Swarm will also be updated tomorrow on both servers.

edit: also made some modifications to empire since, middle seems better now

[Oyster]

Sorry - been very busy at work lately and not too much time for altitude (We've had 5 shootings, a bank robbery, two fatal hit and runs, and a few other armed robberies w/ injuries in just a few days)

I have the background image nearly complete, still needs maybe 30 mins worth of work in photoshop. You'll have to change the properties of the blue screen object covering the background too, but I'll let you know exactly how via pm when I send the image.

I'll work on this when I get home from work in an hour or so

[VAN1SH1NG]

np, I was only expecting the original background file so I can re-import it. If you want to put more work into it just send whenever it is ready.

[Fartface]

Can I just say that J is right and you have very little sense (or care) what the "community" wants

Picking maps on your particular reading of what people like (aka what you personally think is good) is ridiculous. Like J said the most equitable way of doi this is setting the SL maps to 2 (warehouse isn't even SL) and the other ones to 1, though it makes sense to start them out at 2 for the first few days like you said. Idk what makes you think people like playing cave and grotto 3x as much as illumination and cliff. If the new maps become liked and established enough to join a SL pool, bump them to 2.

Just wasted 5 mins writing this post but I never give up #fightthetyrant

[VAN1SH1NG]

Yes that is why other than J and now you I have heard no one else want this. I have asked in-game and no one else has wanted probability of the most popular maps lowered.

Again I don't care either way as I like map variety. It is up to the ladder community and it is clear what they want. I have never before seen any complaints about the popular maps coming up too often. It is the opposite with people saying they do not come up enough.

*****

Empire, Midnight, Cloud, & updated Swarm are now on ladder servers but only Swarm is in random. I forgot I will be gone for the next 2 hours, so I won't add them to random until I get back or maybe even tomorrow. I prefer not to have untested maps in ladder when I am not around. If you want to play them now you can still vote for them though.

[Fartface]

Can you list what you think the "popular maps" are and also link the url that explains how many times each map is in the map pool, or if you deleted it can you repost

[JWhatever]

https://planeball.com/ranked/maps/

-J

[VAN1SH1NG]

Yes that link pulls the map counts directly from the database.

How would you feel about instead only reducing the deviation between the SL maps' probability? Currently all most SL maps are either 2 or 3 while the most popular maps are at 4 and non-SL maps are at 1.

I don't think it is a good idea to make all SL maps equal on ladder, but if you would prefer to reduce the deviation that is a better compromise. I could put most SL maps at 2 or 3 and put the current 4's (roids, cave, pp, grotto.. or grotto could probably be bumped down too) one higher.

edit: moved all 4s down to 3 for now

[Fartface]

Still a bit confused on how you determine which maps are the most popular (e.g. what makes you think hardcourt2 and illumination are less popular than skylands and ice?); that said, I appreciate your willingness to make alterations and I do think that lowering the 4s to 3s is a good idea. I personally think the ideal situation would be all 2s and 1s as I said in my last post, with 2s as established maps and 1s as new maps with the potential to become 2s. Or even 3s and 1s, as long as it's a binary system.

That said, if there were an actual statistical measurement of map popularity, it would make a lot more sense to have three different frequencies. Idk how difficult this would be, but perhaps you could design a poll for planeball.com that allows people to rate maps on a 1-5 scale? You could have a message in-game that encourages people to visit the site to vote. While not everyone would participate, that would at least put an actual observational read on what people like.

Anyway, won't push it further, but a poll at some point might be nice. That said, thanks for being willing to make some changes here; I think it'll give ladder a little more spice.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Yes there is no system to judge map popularity right now and it is mostly my perception based on what I hear in-game. I am fairly confident at how I assigned counts but there are certainly some on the bubble like Skylands which could be either 2 or 3 and grotto isn't really in the same tier as roids, cave, and pp which I think are easily the 3 most popular maps. But I could be wrong about some of them.

As of now any kind of map rating system would need to be done in-game to get enough feedback. I will see if I can find some time to add "/rate <map> <1-5>". Would not require much work, but still it is very low in importance compared to much of the huge list of projects needed to get done for ladder.

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by JWhatever

https://planeball.com/ranked/maps/

Van: http://tablesorter.com/docs/
This allows sorting of the table. It requires thead/tbody (check), jquery (check), an added script and a doc ready function.

$(document).ready(function() 
    { 
        $("#table_ranked_ball_map_list").tablesorter(); 
    } 
);

[VAN1SH1NG]

It already allows sorting though, using https://www.datatables.net/

[VAN1SH1NG]

ball_cloud updated - scaled down as the map felt too big & open, powerup locations changed as having one right under the spawn and so close to the goal was not great

ball_midnight removed from random as it will take a little time to fix. Unless ladder starts later than usual today, the new version will be on the server tomorrow.

ball_gears added, screenshot above

ball_empire random count reduced to 1 as it plays close enough to what I was expecting, no immediate changes needed

[Slender]

Bounces on ball_gears look scary

[VAN1SH1NG]

Originally Posted by Slender

Bounces on ball_gears look scary

I think it looks scarier in the screenshot than it actually is. Aside from the lower corner gear, most surfaces are large enough to predict bounces. Cloud is more difficult, especially with that large cloud when approaching the goal.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Updates:

empire - mid not quite as tight
midnight - small width reduction and small layout changes... may still need work
gears - size reduced

I have proposed an overhaul of cloud, which is pending approval from oyster. Link to screenshot: http://planeball.com/files/ball_cloud2.jpg

[Raisin bran]

Just realised how very similar Midnight is to Mayhem2. Almost an identical layout but with slightly different shapes.

I'm looking at the OP, maybe the one Van is working on changes much of this?

[VAN1SH1NG]

Yes Nikon made it extremely similar to mayhem with the main difference being that it is not as tall. I was not planning any big changes, but if others think it should be changed I can come up with something different. Honestly the top middle of this map is mostly a waste of space, so if anything was changed it would be top middle and maybe bottom middle depending what happens with top.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Updates:

ball_cloud - less open space and more protection to help push on offense
ball_midnight - same reduced size as the last update which was never tested as I decided to redo the middle to differentiate it a bit from mayhem2
ball_empire - improvements to mid, if too cramped with latest update probably will remove diamond from bottom center. I like the map except it feels a bit spammy. I am hoping this update will reduce that a little.

edit: after a game on midnight it seems width definitely needs to be reduced further, so I have an updated map ready to put on servers later today or tomorrow.... and now live since ladder died for scrim

[VAN1SH1NG]

Cloud size scaled down a little bit and object graphics were cleaned up... some had ugly edges.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Empire made a little larger and objects adjusted accordingly. Goals moved off the wall like they were in original. If gameplay is good on this version but too fast I will put the goals back on the wall. Empire seemed close but too spammy. Hopefully the extra size and adjusted object placement will reduce this enough.

Small update to cloud to open up some space.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Empire goals pushed back onto wall and other minor changes. We played this once tonight and it went too quickly. Problem with the current map size is the goals are quite close together if off the wall, but seemingly a little too far apart if I put them on the wall. We will try back on the wall though to see if game time is good.

Gears background lightened slightly to have more contrast with objects

Midnight powerup reduction and middle changed a little in attempt to make top route better

Empire, midnight, swarm, and cloud pulled from random for tomorrow (Saturday) since I won't be around much to watch. Gears seems fine as-is and the current version is tested already so leaving in random for now at lowest probability.

[number 3]

Can we take a vote to take the health packs in the walls off of gears pls thx

[VAN1SH1NG]

Are you asking to only remove the health pack icons inside the objects or also change the powerup?

I added a unique feature in the map with the mid powerup being health only while no other powerups ever spawning health. There was some confusion understandably with the prior version without the health pack icons. It seemed having health icons hinting at the mid powerup being hp only would make it a bit more clear.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Midnight updated to further improve top route. Lane cut into the large object under spawn. That lane offers a lot of extra protection. I believe top route was already decent before and underused, but this should make it more tempting.

[StygMa]

In the Empire map the leftside (the / side) of the right spawning point isnt solid. It kills me but I can fly through.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Thanks, very strange map bug I have never seen. Adjusting the collision outlines and re-saving seems to fix it. I will upload the fixed version tomorrow.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Color (and above fix) only updates to empire, cloud, swarm, and gears primarily to remove green teams because it blends in more with acid.

[VAN1SH1NG]

ball_gears updated - no gameplay changes, only fixes to the outer border plus color changes (purple team -> yellow team, name color now white).

I'm going to be working on cloud, midnight, and empire today. I expect to mostly be giving cloud a height reduction and midnight a width reduction. Empire I am not quite sure about yet.

I might even look at carpia and warehouse since they are scheduled to be played this Sunday. I think the most recent Carpia layout is fine, but the map is far too wide. Warehouse doesn't seem to be fixable, so I'll probably just try to decide which version will be used for SL Funday. If anyone wants to help decide which warehouse to use, send me a message in-game game or on steam/discord.

Expect cloud, midnight, empire, & warehouse to be in random next week (not going to test them this week since G00SE told me funday was pushed back a week). I will post any layout changes here. If possible I will look at Carpia too, but I requested G00SE remove it from the week 4 funday pool. Unless by some miracle I make some small change to warehouse that makes it decent, it will be pulled from random again after SL. It will be temporarily added again the week leading up to the second funday.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Finally have the new versions of cloud, empire, and midnight on the ladder servers.

• cloud - Height reduced and balloon moved down. It is hard to fit in a large central object with an asteroids style map, but I am hoping the map will play well with it moved down.
• empire - Personally I liked the last version of empire except that you could hit long shots from all over the map. Unfortunately there was no easy way to fix that without significant layout changes. So the newest version is a very different map. It may look odd because so many small objects, but I think it will play better than it looks.
• midnight - Width reduced slightly. I have always felt the circular tunnels have not worked well enough on this map, but I had not changed them until now. This is an experimental change and it may be reverted back. I like them on mayhem where you have to leave them to attack the goal, but I do not like that you can attack the goal from inside them on midnight. Top middle was also changed and I like this version much better. However, the middle diamonds may end up cramping the middle too much and may need to be removed (if the circular tunnel also stays in the middle.. otherwise won't be cramped and will stay).

Very sorry, but due to funday coming up I have put all 3 maps at the current max random probability of 3. I know at least cloud and midnight are close to their final versions and just need a quick look at them. They will be brought down to 2 after one or two days. Unless I get overwhelmingly positive feedback on any of these maps by the end of the week they will be further reduced to 1 in random after funday.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Only change for now is I removed the middle diamonds from midnight. Carpia might be ready before the switch to USA today or else it will be on both servers tomorrow morning.

[VAN1SH1NG]

Carpia and empire are not currently in random as I expect to work on those today. I just can't get carpia to work well enough with the Oyster's original set of objects. I will attempt carpia with new smooth objects. They layout may be similar to what was on ladder yesterday though although the lanes near the goals will be expanded to allow for better passing.

Midnight and cloud are still in random. A new version of warehouse I quickly threw together will be in random as well as eidum. I don't think the latest version of eidum I worked on was ever tested. The visual theme may take a slight hit, but it should allow for better gameplay.

If the new version of warehouse is not successful, funday will use Nikon's latest version. Eidum is meant to be just be a quick test to see if the map is viable in case one of the other maps in the pool is not playing well enough and needs to be replaced. If it is not playing well it will be removed from random immediately.