Introducing: The Altitude Ladder

[Sunaku]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

what those maps are

ball_funnelpark

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

why you think they're bad.

Crashfest. Long narrow passages making it heaven for solo riding but not really interesting for passing. Also, a crashfest. Nice graphics though. Still a crashfest.
Please ?

Also to a lesser extent, ball_cross while playable seems to be a trench battle, a bit like football.

[drunkguava]

+ball_cube plz. it's ready to be tested in ladder play.

[Sarah Palin]

BALL_planepark is getting ridiculous.



I have kept a running count - because I disbelieved my first impression - over the past four days every time we play this map in Ladder.

Well, over 70% of goals are scored by running the ball along the bottom passage and scoring with either a dunk or a layup.

There is a confluence of reasons for this.

1. Spawns directly block the top passage, making that route impractical. Compare vs spawns in Snow or Labyrinth.

2. The bottom tunnel is almost completely shielded from all defending planes that aren't coming head-on the other way. Compare vs similar passages in Mayhem or Darkwar.

3. The tunnel is too narrow and too easily mined or walled, and the floor is completely smooth making dribbling easy. Compare vs similar passages in Lost City.

It's too easy to pass the ball down through the wide opening near the center of the map, then run it up and avoid confrontation with the defenders until you emerge right near the goal.

Conversely it's hard to clear the ball FROM the tunnel so once it gets down there, it stays.

I have seen games where the other team is full of clutch passers and great teamwork and we won because we threw the ball down there, walled it up, and then just kept pushing until someone dunked.

Maps should reward good teamwork. Snow for example is a good map because of all the curves - the ball just won't go anywhere unless you pass it.

I know people will say LARN 2 PLAY PALIN but Planepark is not good. It's pretty and took a lot of effort to make and we want to encourage map creation but bad maps should not be on Ladder.

I challenge anyone who disagrees with my analysis to keep a count of 10+ games and see what percent of goals come from which angle of attack.




Funnelpark is fine. It's not a lot of fun but it doesn't have this broken problem.

[tgleaf]

I think we need some sort of voting/poll system for maps. For example, I really enjoy planepark but can't stand cross or funnelpark. To each his own. And while I've lobbied against lostcity and labyrinth in the past, I know many people like them.

Fwiw, no one seemed to enjoy asteroids during a recent ladder match. I like that map for 4v4 messing around, but it doesn't seem to work for 6v6 ladder at all.

[tgleaf]

Please take a moment to rate the current ladder maps here: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CQ9ZJNK.

When I have enough responses, I will post the results.

Edit: results here.

[mjolnir416]

Its broken again, wont start after a successful vote.

[nobodyhome]

I just put in some minor changes into the code. See changelog for details.

[SkyTiger]

nobody,
I wonder if we can set up something for Australia/Asia region to play ladder?

[Kuja900]

When playing on the map Underpark me and many others experience an unexplained choppyness with our Altitude (with movement not visuals). I have tried /parafalse and that made it no better. I have talked to the person who created this map (Mandrad) with Maimer's assistance and they are aware of the choppiness and at this time have no idea how to fix it. If any other experienced map makers (pig ect) would like to assist in the identification of the problem Mandrad would appreciate it. Until such a time this problem is fixed I'd like to see Underpark removed from the ladder map pool. Also take out Bowser's Castle, it has the same problem but in addition the map is just ****ing stupid to have in a competitive environment.

[York]

Let me explain the whole story.

Radium = I <3 Ladder
Woken = I <3 Ladder
YorK = I <3 Ladder

We made a lot of spaces.

Woken was vote kicking people under that name. Now I got banned because rye must have thought it was me. It really wasn't.

I also have a pic of Nipple vote kicking me. So please ban him.

Remove my ban please, because there is no proof it was me. And if you can find the screen shot, I can proof It was radium or woken.

Thanks and sorry for the misunderstanding

[Flight 666]

Ok,
I got banned today too/

Santana KLF player goes AFK, but he not set up as spector, then how the other team can sit as usual...
he was flying in circles for like 5 minutes
The only option was try to kick him -.- i know its worng
Tomorrowz is my only full free day, pls

pls, i have like 500 ladder games,
at least 24 hours.

[York]

Well here's how it breaks down.

You did something wrong, you voted to kick a player. Although you meant good, it was wrong.

I didn't do anything at all lol

[DMCM]

I got banned today too, but i deserved it.

And as long as people play random map and half the maps in the pool are terrible I will continue refusing to play. Just pick a map, it's not hard.

[York]

Originally Posted by DMCM

I got banned today too, but i deserved it.

And as long as people play random map and half the maps in the pool are terrible I will continue refusing to play. Just pick a map, it's not hard.

Yea I was there with you, you were being dumb man.

[Clapon]

Just to clarify york did vote kick unlike he is saying so the ban is legit

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by DMCM

I got banned today too, but i deserved it.

And as long as people play random map and half the maps in the pool are terrible I will continue refusing to play. Just pick a map, it's not hard.

We really need to get some dialog going about the map pool, imo maps should be tested by the community before jammed into the ladder server so we wont have to deal like things like underpark's choppynesss. Also putting in Bowser's Castle was just wtf lol.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

BALL_planepark is getting ridiculous.



I have kept a running count - because I disbelieved my first impression - over the past four days every time we play this map in Ladder.

Well, over 70% of goals are scored by running the ball along the bottom passage and scoring with either a dunk or a layup.

There is a confluence of reasons for this.

1. Spawns directly block the top passage, making that route impractical. Compare vs spawns in Snow or Labyrinth.

2. The bottom tunnel is almost completely shielded from all defending planes that aren't coming head-on the other way. Compare vs similar passages in Mayhem or Darkwar.

3. The tunnel is too narrow and too easily mined or walled, and the floor is completely smooth making dribbling easy. Compare vs similar passages in Lost City.

It's too easy to pass the ball down through the wide opening near the center of the map, then run it up and avoid confrontation with the defenders until you emerge right near the goal.

Conversely it's hard to clear the ball FROM the tunnel so once it gets down there, it stays.

I have seen games where the other team is full of clutch passers and great teamwork and we won because we threw the ball down there, walled it up, and then just kept pushing until someone dunked.

Maps should reward good teamwork. Snow for example is a good map because of all the curves - the ball just won't go anywhere unless you pass it.

I know people will say LARN 2 PLAY PALIN but Planepark is not good. It's pretty and took a lot of effort to make and we want to encourage map creation but bad maps should not be on Ladder.

I challenge anyone who disagrees with my analysis to keep a count of 10+ games and see what percent of goals come from which angle of attack.




Funnelpark is fine. It's not a lot of fun but it doesn't have this broken problem.

I rather like that map actually however you really need your explodets to be on top of their game to shut down that low path effectively.

[Evan20000]

Originally Posted by York

Well here's how it breaks down.

You did something wrong, you voted to kick a player. Although you meant good, it was wrong.

I didn't do anything at all lol

Holier then thou really doesn't suit you. Go back to interwebs tough guy.

[elxir]

bowser's castle is epic and actually a pretty good map

underpark is a great map but like kuja said the choppy play makes it annoying

planepark is a great map and as kuja also said if you have a good whale that bottom path leads to nowhere but a respawn

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by elxir

underpark is a great map but like kuja said the choppy play makes it annoying

Forgot to mention besides the choppyness, I do quite enjoy Underpark. The art is good, layout is interesting and it fits my play style quite nicely. It's a real shame it has this problem but sadly not fit to be played competitively until that problem is fixed.

[Clapon]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

BALL_planepark is getting ridiculous.



I have kept a running count - because I disbelieved my first impression - over the past four days every time we play this map in Ladder.

Well, over 70% of goals are scored by running the ball along the bottom passage and scoring with either a dunk or a layup.

There is a confluence of reasons for this.

1. Spawns directly block the top passage, making that route impractical. Compare vs spawns in Snow or Labyrinth.

2. The bottom tunnel is almost completely shielded from all defending planes that aren't coming head-on the other way. Compare vs similar passages in Mayhem or Darkwar.

3. The tunnel is too narrow and too easily mined or walled, and the floor is completely smooth making dribbling easy. Compare vs similar passages in Lost City.

It's too easy to pass the ball down through the wide opening near the center of the map, then run it up and avoid confrontation with the defenders until you emerge right near the goal.

Conversely it's hard to clear the ball FROM the tunnel so once it gets down there, it stays.

I have seen games where the other team is full of clutch passers and great teamwork and we won because we threw the ball down there, walled it up, and then just kept pushing until someone dunked.

Maps should reward good teamwork. Snow for example is a good map because of all the curves - the ball just won't go anywhere unless you pass it.

I know people will say LARN 2 PLAY PALIN but Planepark is not good. It's pretty and took a lot of effort to make and we want to encourage map creation but bad maps should not be on Ladder.

I challenge anyone who disagrees with my analysis to keep a count of 10+ games and see what percent of goals come from which angle of attack.




Funnelpark is fine. It's not a lot of fun but it doesn't have this broken problem.

Nothing wrong with the map just learn to defend it and use it yourself. it isnt always the best way to go as like you said its easily mined and walled therefor totally stopping any pushes and there are many good passes to be made on the map so im not sure where your going with that.

A good defensive whale is a BIG aspect here or at least some whale that knows how to stay back and not over extend themselves down field.

Either way map is working as intended no need to "fix" something not broken or take the map out as it is a solid ball map.

[Evan20000]

Randas eat things alive on the low route as well.

[nobodyhome]

what i go away for a day and then 20 posts happen! why is it that ladder thread is quiet for weeks and then all of a sudden it floods?!

anyways gonna take this moment to inflate my post count by responding in several separate posts.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by York

Let me explain the whole story.

... yadda yadda yadda...

Remove my ban please, because there is no proof it was me. And if you can find the screen shot, I can proof It was radium or woken.

Thanks and sorry for the misunderstanding

Ban extended to 7 days for lying. Also you have been previously banned (like seriously, your old ban JUST finished. if you only just came back and you cause a problem within 24 hours then what are we supposed to think about that?) and so your next ban was supposed to be longer anyways.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Flight 666

Ok,
I got banned today too/

Santana KLF player goes AFK, but he not set up as spector, then how the other team can sit as usual...
he was flying in circles for like 5 minutes
The only option was try to kick him -.- i know its worng
Tomorrowz is my only full free day, pls

pls, i have like 500 ladder games,
at least 24 hours.

Rye reduced your ban to 24 hours only.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by SkyTiger

nobody,
I wonder if we can set up something for Australia/Asia region to play ladder?

Coding wise it is actually somewhat difficult (i.e. I can't think of a way it'll actually work without bugs) to set up ladder servers in multiple regions. I'll think more about this (probably not until after the reset) but you shouldn't count on it, sorry =\. Plus, australia/asia is the lowest traffic region out of northamerica/europe/asia-australia I believe, so it's on a lower priority than a european server.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Kuja900

When playing on the map Underpark me and many others experience an unexplained choppyness with our Altitude (with movement not visuals). I have tried /parafalse and that made it no better. I have talked to the person who created this map (Mandrad) with Maimer's assistance and they are aware of the choppiness and at this time have no idea how to fix it. If any other experienced map makers (pig ect) would like to assist in the identification of the problem Mandrad would appreciate it. Until such a time this problem is fixed I'd like to see Underpark removed from the ladder map pool. Also take out Bowser's Castle, it has the same problem but in addition the map is just ****ing stupid to have in a competitive environment.

Yeah, I'm well aware that something is wrong with underpark's graphics (you can check my posts on the tbd_underpark thread in map making forum, i initially thought it was some parallax thing but now i'm not so sure). I am aware of this, but currently the ladder is in "off season", which means i am just gonna keep it up there for testing/map feedback purposes because extreme competitiveness is not the highest priority right now. feel free to vote stop tournament it if everyone hates it though.

bowser's castle... understood about the graphics, but i've yet to see a single reason given for why people dislike bowser's castle. the only obvious one i can think of is that it's a mario map. unfortunately i don't care that the graphics are mario, it doesn't make it inappropriate in my eyes--is there an actual gameplay reason for why you dislike bowser's castle?

keep the feedback coming about these maps, remember, i put this maps on for experimental purposes sorta. remember this thread: http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3283 that i accidently posted in the league forums and was never moved.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

BALL_planepark is getting ridiculous.

etc etc etc,

i agree with you that the bottom path is kinda meh, but from tgleaf's survey and in-game/forum sensing of the community's opinion, it seems like people think planepark is one of the better maps.

so not gonna take it out sorry.

[nobodyhome]

Originally Posted by DMCM

I got banned today too, but i deserved it.

Thanks for not being a whiner like some other people.

Originally Posted by DMCM

And as long as people play random map and half the maps in the pool are terrible I will continue refusing to play. Just pick a map, it's not hard.

I might consider lowering the ratio for voting an actual map rather than random. right now, part of the reason why people do random instead of picking a map is because the vote threshold for random is 60% whereas the one for picking a map is 80%. i did this to incentivize doing random maps because before, everybody was cycling around core/asteroids/grotto/cave incessantly. now that people seem to actually play a variety of maps i might change it.

and i understand that you think the map pool is terrible (and i don't completely disagree), but let me address that in a later post.

[nobodyhome]

as a general response to some of the more recent posts: yes, i know some people think some maps are bad, and i do agree that the map pool needs some changing. keep in mind that there really are only just very few good maps out there and i need to keep the map pool large in order to keep ladder fresh--the map pool would honestly be a lot better if more community members took a few hours out of their 1000+ hours of play to learn and make some damn maps (if you suck at drawing, make a layout and work with someone who can draw!)

about bowser's castle--sure, you think it's lol because you don't think it's serious because it's... well, bowser's castle, but stop and think: is it REALLY a bad map layout/gameplay wise? it might be bad, but in order for it to be dropped it has to be worse-layout-in-the-entire-map-pool-as-in-its-worse-than-loco-bad. keep in mind that i can't just drop a map because it has "bad layout", because if i did that then we'd be left with just asteroids/core/grotto/cave/focus/heights as the only ladder maps. it has to be THE WORST LAYOUT IN THE ENTIRE MAP POOL to warrant dropping.

[Flight 666]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

Rye reduced your ban to 24 hours only.

ty
10 charr.

[DMCM]

Thanks nobo.

For the record, when I got banned, the vote to start random was lower than 75% so a significant ammount of people didn't want to play random. And a significant ammount were displeased when they saw Locomotion. We even started a vote to stop tournament, which failed. That is no excuse for leaving a game, but it wasn't a solo act of rage.


As for the map pool. I think most people would agree that these should be there

Cave
Asteroids
Lostcity
Core (though I hate it personally)
Grotto
Heights
Woods
Fallout
Justice
Focus
Mayhem (maybe)


Then there's Middleground and Locomotion which usually make really long games, but they have always been played as official, so I don't know.

Scrapyard should not have been there before the community had at least tried them before in other servers, in my opinion. I think Scrapyard is actually a really nice map, but I had never played it before when I saw it in ladder.

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by DMCM

Scrapyard should not have been there before the community had at least tried them before in other servers, in my opinion. I think Scrapyard is actually a really nice map, but I had never played it before when I saw it in ladder.

The ladder servers make for excellent testing grounds for new maps outside of official league games. I say keep adding new maps (loco2, snow, blackhole, radioactive, cube). Blackhole's OP screenies are old, and radioactive's actual screenie is in a post further down the page.

Also, if Mandrad isn't going to keep working on sketch, do others have permission to work on it?

[York]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

Ban extended to 7 days for lying. Also you have been previously banned (like seriously, your old ban JUST finished. if you only just came back and you cause a problem within 24 hours then what are we supposed to think about that?) and so your next ban was supposed to be longer anyways.

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

Rye reduced your ban to 24 hours only.

Are you serious? I didn't lie. Ever. You extend my ban simply because I have just had a recent ban? Do you remember what my ban was for? For playing high. Where is the rules does it say I can't do that? Then you reduce flights simply because you guys like him? You should get your hand out from your pants.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by nobodyhome

as a general response to some of the more recent posts: yes, i know some people think some maps are bad, and i do agree that the map pool needs some changing. keep in mind that there really are only just very few good maps out there and i need to keep the map pool large in order to keep ladder fresh--the map pool would honestly be a lot better if more community members took a few hours out of their 1000+ hours of play to learn and make some damn maps (if you suck at drawing, make a layout and work with someone who can draw!)

about bowser's castle--sure, you think it's lol because you don't think it's serious because it's... well, bowser's castle, but stop and think: is it REALLY a bad map layout/gameplay wise? it might be bad, but in order for it to be dropped it has to be worse-layout-in-the-entire-map-pool-as-in-its-worse-than-loco-bad. keep in mind that i can't just drop a map because it has "bad layout", because if i did that then we'd be left with just asteroids/core/grotto/cave/focus/heights as the only ladder maps. it has to be THE WORST LAYOUT IN THE ENTIRE MAP POOL to warrant dropping.

Well really what layout in the pool is worse? You could make an argument for Justice since there is an imbalance for one side however with /parafalse to get rid of the back round so I'm not blinded I find myself having no problem with the map. tbd_Nuclear>>>Bowser's Castle, Nuclear is not the best map and it would be in my bottom 3 however by comparison Bowser's has the grand trifecta of unexplained choppyness/bad layout/silly graphics.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by DMCM

Thanks nobo.

For the record, when I got banned, the vote to start random was lower than 75% so a significant ammount of people didn't want to play random. And a significant ammount were displeased when they saw Locomotion. We even started a vote to stop tournament, which failed. That is no excuse for leaving a game, but it wasn't a solo act of rage.


As for the map pool. I think most people would agree that these should be there

Cave
Asteroids
Lostcity
Core (though I hate it personally)
Grotto
Heights
Woods
Fallout
Justice
Focus
Mayhem (maybe)


Then there's Middleground and Locomotion which usually make really long games, but they have always been played as official, so I don't know.

Scrapyard should not have been there before the community had at least tried them before in other servers, in my opinion. I think Scrapyard is actually a really nice map, but I had never played it before when I saw it in ladder.

Yeah that mappool looks great to me with the addition of middleground and maybe even loco. Scrapyard is way too open in my opinion it needs some layout changes.

[CCN]

I like the new maps, and I hate loco.


ScrapYard could use some tweaking but it's a fun map.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by York

Are you serious? I didn't lie. Ever. You extend my ban simply because I have just had a recent ban? Do you remember what my ban was for? For playing high. Where is the rules does it say I can't do that? Then you reduce flights simply because you guys like him? You should get your hand out from your pants.

York you brighten my days I just want you to know that.

[Pieface]

Justice is bad; I said why in that earlier thread. Bright background + uneven layout + bottom path focus = unplayable imo. I'm gonna reserve judgement on loco because the games can either be really fun or really bad depending on how they're played.

As for the others, I too really enjoy scrapyard. I think it would help to maybe put in like one more mall obstacle on the top or something to prevent everyone from constantly going bomber and spamming up there. I also really enjoy bowsercastle, but I can see why others don't like it. It makes an extremely good map for just about any type of randa, and as a randa player that makes me happy. But if one team has a semi-decent TA on their team then the others don't have a chance.

Not quite sure what to say about nuclear, since it's pretty much just a lob-friendly version of core with better graphics. Haven't played it competitively so I won't make any comments.

Edit: I really like the gameplay of underpark, and haven't experienced that much choppiness. But if others are seeing it then it should probably be looked into.

[Kuja900]

Originally Posted by Pieface

Justice is bad; I said why in that earlier thread. Bright background + uneven layout + bottom path focus = unplayable imo. I'm gonna reserve judgement on loco because the games can either be really fun or really bad depending on how they're played.

As for the others, I too really enjoy scrapyard. I think it would help to maybe put in like one more mall obstacle on the top or something to prevent everyone from constantly going bomber and spamming up there. I also really enjoy bowsercastle, but I can see why others don't like it. It makes an extremely good map for just about any type of randa, and as a randa player that makes me happy. But if one team has a semi-decent TA on their team then the others don't have a chance.

Not quite sure what to say about nuclear, since it's pretty much just a lob-friendly version of core with better graphics. Haven't played it competitively so I won't make any comments.

Justice becomes more playable with /parafalse to turn off the background, but yes it is **** but comparatively speaking its at least usable. People don't like being unable to defend their hard earned ladder rank because of choppyness rendering them half useless.