How to fix the speccing problem

[[hlx] FatTristan]

We should have multiple 14 person servers. You go in a server and wait until it has 12 people and then custom_start. After the game, the server will kick everyone out of that server.

This method will mean ladder won't die for the day when there is a short stagnation of players. My belief is players sign in to see if ladder is up and if it's not, often exit Altitude. Spec times would be clearly be shorter. You have more people play because the people who leave after checking to see if ladder is up will instead stay. We need to fundamentally change our attitude about how to get 12 people in ladder if you want shorter spec times. We need to change our approach to one that is building up to 12 people. This system will mean people have a chance to play ladder more often in the day. When we only have 4 people in a server at midnight on a weekday, it looks hopeless to start ladder. This solution will make people lose that kind of mentality. Maybe people won't adjust quickly, but after a few weeks, people will look at ladder as developing embryo instead of an hourglass that is running out of time.


I'll address the three main problems with this, though I obviously believe the benefits outweigh them.

1) There is the problem of idling in which 14 players (the max) will be present, but less than 12 have clicked in. The ability to kick players may be need to be reinstated to fix this problem. The other, easier way to fix idling is to make the altitude game icon in the task bar blink (using a vote-based, server command) to signify to players who are browsing the internet to know 12 people are in the server and they need to click in.

2) There is also a problem of being continually specced after a game finishes. If a game just finishes, those finished players will go fill another server to 14. Two people will get specced and there would be a 1/7 chance that at least one player who hadn't played a previous game will get specced. To fix this problem, you could just prohibit anyone who hasn't finished a ladder match (in any server) in the last 5 minutes from NOT getting specced.

3) The last problem is that you can't watch other people's matches. But if you think about other games, it's rather uncommon for other people to be in the same server watching players play a ranked match anyway. Even when you first go from dojo to ladder, the first thing you think is that it sucks to have to spec every other game. Nobo has actually made it clear that he doesn't like specs talking to players (and I'd have to agree). If you value watching and interacting with the players more than shorter wait times, then I suppose the current system is better for you.


People are so resistant to change, that they often won't even consider novel ideas like mine even though they would easily fix the problem. If my solution is implemented, unquestionably, the amount of time to wait to play ladder will dramatically decrease and the amount of time in a day possible to play ladder will dramatically increase.

[[Y]]

protip: don't write things like that last paragraph if you want to be taken seriously

[Ajplagge]

While I agree the current system is in need of change I don't think limiting the player count to 14 is a good idea because:
1. People sometime like specing.
2. When there are only 15-23 people who want to play, a frequent scenario, the join que will be huge.
3. Stagnant games with only 14 people in a server.

Alternatively I propose eliminating the the max player entirely which would:
1. Increase the number of people able to coordinate starting a second ladder.
2. Eliminate the hesitation most people have in joining the second ladder because of fear of losing their spot in the going ladder.

I'd also suggest creating a pre-formatted poll called "Start New Ladder?" to allow obs to gauge if there is enough interest in getting another one going.

-Bob

[Urpee]

I think a /vote custom move_server ladder_ball_4 would be enough. If the vote passes, everybody who voted gets moved to the server voted on. This removes the ambiguity if enough players actually will move.

[[hlx] FatTristan]

Originally Posted by Ajplagge

While I agree the current system is in need of change I don't think limiting the player count to 14 is a good idea because:
1. People sometime like specing.
2. When there are only 15-23 people who want to play, a frequent scenario, the join que will be huge.
3. Stagnant games with only 14 people in a server.

Alternatively I propose eliminating the the max player entirely which would:
1. Increase the number of people able to coordinate starting a second ladder.
2. Eliminate the hesitation most people have in joining the second ladder because of fear of losing their spot in the going ladder.

I'd also suggest creating a pre-formatted poll called "Start New Ladder?" to allow obs to gauge if there is enough interest in getting another one going.

-Bob

You brought up some good points so lemme respond as innocuously as possible.

1) The kind of "enjoy speccing" mentality that most people here have is not one found in any other online game. I think reducing the amount of play time should be prioritized and leave socializing to the forums. Again, this is purely opinion. I think the people who "enjoy speccing" only do so because that's how they've done it this long and they don't want change.

2) The scenario in which only 15-23 people want to play is one that is manufactured by our current system. If people wait long enough, they will eventually get that 12th person. This eliminates the "ladder death" problem because people won't see 0 people in a server as a lost cause anymore.

3) Everyone will be automatically kicked from the server after a game as I mentioned. Some of them will fill up a partially-filled ladder and others will make another partial ladder.

I have also thought about getting rid of the ladder cap, and I think it is a reasonable idea. However, we thought people would be more apt to leave when we increased the cap to 26 and that didn't happen. As you can see, people are too lazy to mobilize themselves and I think we have to assume they just won't move to another ladder consistently. This could better than the current ladder or significantly worse. If there are 40 people, I'm sure they can start a second ladder. If there are 28 people, people still won't leave because they're retarded. I do agree that this idea is better than the current ladder.


The other solution is to just have a vote_movespecs option like Urpee suggested. I just assumed if this could be done it would have been done already. If someone wants to implement this, be my guest.

Nobo and Lamster, I'm still waiting for y'all to weigh in. I'm sure everyone agrees the current system is not the smartest it could be.

[Threevenge]

Originally Posted by [hlx] FatTristan

1) The kind of "enjoy speccing" mentality that most people here have is not one found in any other online game. I think reducing the amount of play time should be prioritized and leave socializing to the forums. Again, this is purely opinion. I think the people who "enjoy speccing" only do so because that's how they've done it this long and they don't want change.

Or....and this is a long shot...I actually enjoy watching my teammates play and use my spec time to study players that have attributes in their game that I like. It's not like we have a replay system, speccing is the only way for me to evaluate potential recruits or learn from other players. It's ridiculous to think the "enjoy speccing" mentality is only found here. Ask lix and the others who stream SC2 games all night.

[sunshineduck]

not feeling having to play with the same 13 people over and over and over and over and over

[[hlx] FatTristan]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

not feeling having to play with the same 13 people over and over and over and over and over

You will not be playing with the same people. As I've mentioned, the server will boot everyone out after each game. Some will join another server that already has players and others will start a new server.

It is actually under the current system that we see matches where player composition is stagnant.

[[hlx] FatTristan]

Originally Posted by Threevenge

Or....and this is a long shot...I actually enjoy watching my teammates play and use my spec time to study players that have attributes in their game that I like. It's not like we have a replay system, speccing is the only way for me to evaluate potential recruits or learn from other players. It's ridiculous to think the "enjoy speccing" mentality is only found here. Ask lix and the others who stream SC2 games all night.

I concede that the "enjoy speccing" mentality is one found in other games too. However, I think creating a ladder where you have to spec less is what we should be trying to accomplish. If the problem is we can't watch games, then I don't believe the solution is to drown ladder with inefficiency. I would think the first thought would be to try and figure out how to record games instead.

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by [hlx] FatTristan

You will not be playing with the same people. As I've mentioned, the server will boot everyone out after each game. Some will join another server that already has players and others will start a new server.

It is actually under the current system that we see matches where player composition is stagnant.

the ball servers will have 12 people playing and up to 2 spectating when a game ends. unless you believe that every game will end at exactly the same time even with multiple ladder servers running, you will most definitely be playing with the same people since the other servers will still have a game going on.

[[hlx] FatTristan]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

the ball servers will have 12 people playing and up to 2 spectating when a game ends. unless you believe that every game will end at exactly the same time even with multiple ladder servers running, you will most definitely be playing with the same people since the other servers will still have a game going on.

Woah boy, you can cut the passive aggressiveness with a knife! I wasn't trying to be a douche in my last post, but I sorta sounded like one. Sorry.

I will clarify as innocuously as possible. Let's say there are 12 people in Ladder 3 and 6 people in Ladder 4. The game of 12 ends. Everyone in Ladder 3 is kicked out by the server. 6 of those 12 who were previously in Ladder 3 go to Ladder 4. The other 6 start another server and wait for 12 to join. This system actually makes people play more different people than our current one.

I admit I was being unclear. Hope that helped!

[sunshineduck]

i'm not passive aggressive, i just never use capital letters when i type. easy mistake

the system you've proposed is about as good when there are less than the current server max of people. what about when there are 24+ people online playing?

[[hlx] FatTristan]

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

i'm not passive aggressive, i just never use capital letters when i type. easy mistake

the system you've proposed is about as good when there are less than the current server max of people. what about when there are 24+ people online playing?

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be passive aggressive or douchey either. Logically, I need more people to go along with this so that would be dumb.

24+ people actually works better. Let's say it's Saturday night. There are 30 people. 12 are playing in Ladder 3, 12 are playing in Ladder 4, and 6 are waiting in Euro Ladder. Assume Ladder 3 ends first. 6/12 go to Euro Ladder and the other 6/12 go to Ladder 3 to presumably wait for Ladder 4 to finish. A busy night actually works better because you could get to 12 without waiting until another server finishes its game. If we want to only play in USA servers or only in Euro servers, we'll need more servers.

[sunshineduck]

that's quite a bit of waiting

[[hlx] FatTristan]

I guess my thread's title is a little misleading. There won't be no spec time, but just less than the current system. People who would otherwise leave because ladder isn't up will stay.

[undertheinfluence]

Originally Posted by Ajplagge

I'd also suggest creating a pre-formatted poll called "Start New Ladder?" to allow obs to gauge if there is enough interest in getting another one going.

-Bob

Haha i just suggested that in another thread if you want to check it out-"People not able to get second ladder going lately"

[Ajplagge]

Originally Posted by undertheinfluence

Haha i just suggested that in another thread if you want to check it out-"People not able to get second ladder going lately"

Genius loves company!

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by [hlx] FatTristan

I guess my thread's title is a little misleading. There won't be no spec time, but just less than the current system. People who would otherwise leave because ladder isn't up will stay.

it's not even spec time, it's sitting in lobby waiting for a game time. that's not even getting into the hassle of rejoining servers and how the lobbies would figure out who gets to play. it's a significant amount of work for something that would annoy me infinitely more than waiting 10 minutes watching someone else play before i can.

[Tekn0]

Obviously as innocuously as this may seem to be but it's not so innocuous if the spectators are obviously not doing anything but innocuous spectating for being booted into the other server

[Aki1024]

Force players to type in a password once per game and see if it makes it to game 3 before raging on the forums starts.

[[hlx] FatTristan]

The problem is people have learned to "enjoy speccing" to the point where it is valued more than having a more easily started, quicker ladder system.

If my idea was in place now, and I was trying to convince you to make 26 person servers so you could have the "privilege" to spec, you'd think I was crazy. Ultimately, people don't like change or even thinking outside of their comfort zone. The current ladder system is moronic, but I have realized that it probably won't change.

[evilarsenal]

Originally Posted by [hlx] FatTristan

The problem is people have learned to "enjoy speccing" to the point where it is valued more than having a more easily started, quicker ladder system.

If my idea was in place now, and I was trying to convince you to make 26 person servers so you could have the "privilege" to spec, you'd think I was crazy. Ultimately, people don't like change or even thinking outside of their comfort zone. The current ladder system is moronic, but I have realized that it probably won't change.

welcome to altitude where your points dont matter because not enough people play
/dreewcarey

[Jayfourke]

Mmm, stagnation. Delicious.