New League Idea

[Element]

Hey guys,

for those that don't know who I am, I started playing Altitude in 2009 and stopped playing in 2013 due to work related issues. I've completed the several projects that I've had to do and am looking to start playing Altitude again. It sounds ambitious and a lot of you probably disagree with me here. I have noticed that the game mode Ball is far more popular then TBD and I'd like to attempt to relight the interest in TBD.

My idea is to create a competition/league that not only appeals to those that play at high standards but also those that would like to try something different for once. The competition will be started with all teams playing each other once. This is to measure the skill levels of each team. Points will be awarded for wins/draws/losses. Once all teams have played each other, the table will be divided into two Tiers/Leagues. This will hopefully allow for a much more fairer competition where those teams that are less experienced, have a better chance at winning something. Games played in each Tier will be elimination. The Winner of Tier 1, will receive $1000 dollars* with Tier 2 winning $500 dollars*. 2nd place in each Tier respectively will be receiving CP but this is to be discussed with Karlam. The whole format of this competition is to be discussed but the structure of it will be kept the same with the league being divided into two tiers to make it a bit more fair.

At the moment, this is just to gather interest so let me know whether you'd be interested in participating. *For Prize money questions, contact me. For competition structure and system questions, contact myself or fluffy. If this is to go ahead, it'll start after the Sky League.

[Oyster]

Sounds great - should be pretty easy to market this in other communities (we can always throw it up on teamliquid.net and get a few thousand views ez)

If you need any help with anything, just let me know.

[Slender]

Putting money on the line is actually really exciting. If there is any help needed for the prizes, I could lend a hand.

[Fluffy]

A new prize system is being worked on - still including real money but different setup.

We feel that these changes will make people really try to get into the Tier 1 slots without feeling sore if they lose in Tier 1. We need at least ~80 'yes' on the poll to make this happen. Roster size is 8 so we need 10 teams minimum. 5 teams per tier.

It would be helpful if you could tell pub players about the forums and about this possible league, an aim of the league is to introduce new teams (into Tier 2) to competitive altitude where a lot of the now veteran players started off - TBD.

We are also thinking of an anti-OP team system, so you don't get overly stacked teams going for gold.

[Kafka]

I appreciate your ambition, but I am seeing so many problems with this.

Originally Posted by Fluffy

We need at least ~80 'yes' on the poll to make this happen. Roster size is 8 so we need 10 teams minimum. 5 teams per tier.

There is really no chance whatsoever that 80 people will respond to this, or any poll. There aren't even that many active players on the forums. Judging by the past APL's, it would be quite difficult to get at least 10 cohesive teams together.

Originally Posted by Element

I'd like to attempt to relight the interest in TBD.

Please see the thread about Flight Club for a similar interest. MagneticDuck has done a great job getting competitive TBD games going just about every day.

Originally Posted by Element

The Winner of Tier 1, will receive $1000 dollars* with Tier 2 winning $500 dollars*. 2nd place in each Tier respectively will be receiving CP but this is to be discussed with Karlam.

I'm curious as to where this $1,500 in prize money is coming from. If you're donating it yourself, props to you. That's quite the investment in a single tournament. Also, karlam have stated that CP have been discontinued. Although maybe they'd reconsider as a prize for something like this.

[darknietzsche]

Similar concerns above.

You mention to try to stop teams from stacking, but how would this be done that people could not argue fairly for.

Finding the money (which if you have props to you as Kafka said) let alone distributing it is also very difficult, you have to remember a lot of people play this game who aren't 18 or have access to things like paypal or google wallet.

Let alone all the minor details which would have me be a lot more convinced that this could be done. Like a rule sets, how many games would be played for each match? Servers, maps, all these little details required for a tournament would have been nice to iron out to help convince me this was well thought out before hand.

What is the ultimate goal of the tournament? To revive TBD? To get more competitive teams? To try to bring new people into altitude? There lacks key focus to what is to be done.

You mention to relight TBD, but I am not sure this tournament would be the best way of going about this.

A bigger clearer picture would help me determine or not whether something like this should be done.

Also, karlam have stated that CP have been discontinued. Although maybe they'd reconsider as a prize for something like this.

@Kafka CP is relatively a non-issue as they can still award it to players which is what I have going on for APL/SL.

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by Kafka

I appreciate your ambition, but I am seeing so many problems with this.



There is really no chance whatsoever that 80 people will respond to this, or any poll. There aren't even that many active players on the forums. Judging by the past APL's, it would be quite difficult to get at least 10 cohesive teams together.



Please see the thread about Flight Club for a similar interest. MagneticDuck has done a great job getting competitive TBD games going just about every day.


I'm curious as to where this $1,500 in prize money is coming from. If you're donating it yourself, props to you. That's quite the investment in a single tournament. Also, karlam have stated that CP have been discontinued. Although maybe they'd reconsider as a prize for something like this.

It is true that it is a huge ask for around 80 players to vote on the poll, but in order for Element, myself and other people involved to create a league that appeals to both new players and veteran players - takes time - we need to be sure that people actually want this.

Flight club is a good start for introducing new players and such to competitive altitude, although, there is no real desire to win as there is no reward. As in ladder, you win you gain points. For here, Tier 2 League, the newer players / less veteran team will have a desire to win, do better and strive for success both in the league and out of league play - focusing on making their play league worthy. And why? Because there is a true prize involved.

We have lowered the roster from 12 (in APL) to 8 players per team. Why? So we get more teams, less stacked teams and more competitive games. We are working on a system for stacked teams but having the rosters low really does help regarding this issue.

The money comes straight from Elements pocket ^.^ All thanks to his desire to introduce new players to competitive altitude and TBD!

[Fluffy]

@DN

Right now we are just interest gathering. The logistics behind it will be thought of once we see people would like this to happen. The whole thing is just an idea, if people like the idea of winning for cash, small teams of 8 then hopefully the poll would show. We have yet to discuss issues relating to servers, map pool and such. Need to see the interest!

I think both elements and my reason of putting out this idea is to 1: bring new players into the competitive community. In my own opinion, reviving TBD would of course be a bonus though I doubt having a big league with teams of 8 would help the TBD revival dramatically. It might shed some light on ballers, though the focus will be mainly to attract new players.

On the stacked teams issue, rosters of 8 helps but we have yet to pick up this problem fully so that answer will have to wait.


As I have said above, this is merely an idea, which means it can be changed! In light of the money transfer issue, we can possibly make it so 18's and above get their share of the loot (If winning team ($1000) has 5 18's and 3 under 18's, the 18's will get $125 and the under 18's will get CP, leaving $375 going back to Element) and so on for 2nd and 3rd place. Again, the whole thing is an idea that can be drastically changed, if people like the idea of a tournament containing money as prizes and different tiers to introduce newer players, we can surly find a way to make it happen.

[Mr Nice]

Well if each team was to pay to participate and if The price Was to be lowered maybe it could work. Like for example The price money would exist by The payments of each team.

[sunshineduck]

having an entry fee is an excellent way to ensure nobody enters

[JWhatever]

We have controversial bull**** happening in every league we play. Map picking, server picking and ping issues related, name changing, you name it. If there's anything more than karlam points as the reward, even if it was just for beer money, I bet all of the above would become tenfold.

You'd tear the community apart.

-J

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice

Well if each team was to pay to participate and if The price Was to be lowered maybe it could work. Like for example The price money would exist by The payments of each team.

Yeah, I agree with SSD, I don't think an entry fee would be a wise decision

[Element]

Originally Posted by JWhatever

We have controversial bull**** happening in every league we play. Map picking, server picking and ping issues related, name changing, you name it. If there's anything more than karlam points as the reward, even if it was just for beer money, I bet all of the above would become tenfold.

You'd tear the community apart.

-J

You do have a point, but I think tearing the community apart is a bit extreme. I'd like to do the opposite from that. I have been gone for a while so I'm not 100% up-to-date with whats going on in Altitude. J, all these issues you list can be worked on and dealt with if there is the appropriate oversight and organisation. My main goal is to reignite the interest in TBD and that doesn't necessarily mean using money but it was a suggestion. This project of mine isn't something that'll happen by tomorrow but rather a long term plan, which I'd like to see through.

[Phyx]

I like the idea but do we have enough TBD clans for this to work?

[tomato man]

Originally Posted by Phyx

I like the idea but do we have enough TBD clans for this to work?

The solution imo is that we let ball teams take part to this too.

BALL/TBD tourney with 10 teams (5 per mode): every team plays others in both modes.
Sign up per team should be 100$ (6,66$ per player with 15 ppl roster)
First: 600$ Second: 300$ Third: 100$

If for example in a team there are only 4 people that want "to put money on the table", they just paypal 25$ per person to Ele and then if they arrive first they divide the prize in 4 .
Ele will manage well the cash no worries
I think this can also finally show who are the most complete players, BALL or TBD.

lemme know if u like the idea

[Fluffy]

The whole idea of teams giving in money to participate is mad. To enter the tournament should be completely free as Element has stated that he will be giving away the money to help altitude - competitive wise.

And here is a rough back of the tissue paper workings of how we can get enough teams.

In the last APL, let us take the teams that came 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Each team has 12 decent players - 36 players in total. Since the max roster size is 8, leaving the total teams in Tier 1 to be 4 with some remaining players to make up the final 5th team for Tier 1. (This is of course the ideal scenario of how it may turn out to be).
With teams like WH for example, who had a total of 24 players all together and with some of the other teams, I am sure we can make up a decent Tier 2 as well with enough teams.
With that in mind, the issue now comes of what I stated before, an aim for this competition is to introduce NEW players to competitive TBD. So, we may need another Tier - taking into account that what I have just said actually happens, which it won't since reality isn't perfect.

If all players from the APL are active and want to play, 2 tiers can easily be made, but knowing that this won't happen, we can bring into the equation that new players might want to join - making up the teams to play in the 2nd tier.

^Was made up on the spot - just an example of how this whole thing is not a finished product and can be changed by discussions on how to create a new league, if people do actually want another TBD league.

[tomato man]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

The whole idea of teams giving in money to participate is mad. To enter the tournament should be completely free as Element has stated that he will be giving away the money to help altitude -

My bad, didnt get it, thanks ele then

[leggomyeggo]

i'll host a monthly 1v1 tournament and send the winner a case of his/her favorite beer

deal?

[Kafka]

Originally Posted by tomato man

Sign up per team should be 100$ (6,66$ per player with 15 ppl roster)
First: 600$ Second: 300$ Third: 100$

With this logic, the third place team would be competing to win their entry fee back, nothing more.

Having players/teams pay to enter the tournament is a messy idea. That would take a lot of coordination and trust to get all the money in the right place. It's just asking for drama and possibly embezzlement.

Element donating the prize money would work best, but could still be messy. How to ensure the team captains dole out the money evenly, and how to compensate players under 18?

Also, two tiers may induce drama. Let's say a top 4 team (boom, implosion, qq, fro) decides to throw the qualifying game in order to be placed in the 2nd tier where they can easily win rather than compete with similar or better teams for overall supremacy?

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by Kafka

Also, two tiers may induce drama. Let's say a top 4 team (boom, implosion, qq, fro) decides to throw the qualifying game in order to be placed in the 2nd tier where they can easily win rather than compete with similar or better teams for overall supremacy?

I'm sure we can think up a way to make sure that doesn't happen. If for example qq lose to [insert_team_newbie], eyebrows will be raised.

Perhaps we can have an 'expected outcome' and then compare it to the 'real outcome' after the matches. If nothing adds up, we can do re-runs of certain matches and watch to see if the teams are throwing.

[Clam]

Viva la tbd

Use fake money for a salary capped league or something, real money is scary

Also i'm in for leggo's tourny

[V.0.L.T.A.G.E]

Actually this message is to fluffy because I want to inform him/her that I will not be able to join the league because school will be starting soon (in one week) so yeah, sorry fluff

[Knipchip]

Originally Posted by Kafka

Element donating the prize money would work best, but could still be messy. How to ensure the team captains dole out the money evenly, and how to compensate players under 18?

Participants can solve this individually. Some might have willing parents, for example.

Originally Posted by Fluffy

I'm sure we can think up a way to make sure that doesn't happen. If for example qq lose to [insert_team_newbie], eyebrows will be raised.

Perhaps we can have an 'expected outcome' and then compare it to the 'real outcome' after the matches. If nothing adds up, we can do re-runs of certain matches and watch to see if the teams are throwing.

Who decides whether to interpret what we observe as throwing, lapsing, serendipity or even different rates of improvement? For instance, contrary to popular belief, teamwork actually means a lot. An underdog team can quickly become great if its members feel the need to grow as a team. I personally don't see a way to do this fairly.

My recommendation: give people enough time to practice; if this tournament is going to happen, enough opportunities for practice are going to happen.

Originally Posted by tomato man

I think this can also finally show who are the most complete players, BALL or TBD.

I think this has already been shown.

Originally Posted by Phyx

I like the idea but do we have enough TBD clans for this to work?

The amount of TBD clans we believe can be considered as existent now is totally irrelevant. Perhaps the more important question is how many potential TBD teams can be there at the start of the tournament.

Originally Posted by JWhatever

We have controversial bull**** happening in every league we play. Map picking, server picking and ping issues related, name changing, you name it. If there's anything more than karlam points as the reward, even if it was just for beer money, I bet all of the above would become tenfold.

You'd tear the community apart.

-J

Quite the irony coming from one who partook in a striking example of that just last APL. Of course you good sir had no ill intent. It's up to us how much we'll allow teams to get away with.

Originally Posted by Kafka

There is really no chance whatsoever that 80 people will respond to this, or any poll. There aren't even that many active players on the forums. Judging by the past APL's, it would be quite difficult to get at least 10 cohesive teams together.

Judging this by the past APLs is like comparing apples to oranges. Comparing the set of currently active players to the set of currently active players and currently somewhat inactive players and those longing for nostalgia or money, you'll likely see that there's a large untapped pool of players who just might help constitute these 80 players.

[Fluffy]

Big changes are being made and a new official thread about registration and such will be posted in the near future. Hints: we have taken a liking to Clam's idea about currency and such and formed a whole new league idea that we will stick with and think you all will enjoy.