Patch: February 15th, balance adjustments

[Hollywood]

qq more loopies. You are finally punished for spamming just like every other plane, and you hate it.

Edit: Though if people really think it's too much, I would agree to a 0.5 value change to the cool down. (1.75 -> 1.70)

[Fartface]

Just a few thoughts:

TA nerf is well done, but it just leaves trickster OP! We really need to reduce trick's turning with D ability when it has the ball or something. All randas will just go trick now. And in tbd, I suspect playing whale will still not be viable.

Thermo was already better than remote; even though the remote nerf wasn't huge, why did it get one at all?

Otherwise this looks like good stuff, thanks again for taking the time to do it lam.


Also, I fear that SL might be ruined... I don't suppose you could undo this patch just until its over?

[Tekn0]

EMP is fine, it was way too easy to just spam it earlier, the cooldown addresses it well.

[darknietzsche]

I have only tried emp since the patch, and I noticed the immediate change to the cooldown. My first impression was that maybe it was too much, but after playing a game or so, I realized I had adjusted and it did not feel any less demanding. I can see it hurting players in certain situations, but again part of the problem is the skill ceiling of players because after a few games I did not even notice the cooldown any longer.

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by Fartface

TA nerf is well done, but it just leaves trickster OP! We really need to reduce trick's turning with D ability when it has the ball or something. All randas will just go trick now. And in tbd, I suspect playing whale will still not be viable.

Let us play it a bit before jumping to conclusions. The fact that warp is almost totally useless makes randas not able to dominate smokey-clusterfcks and get the ball with just a single warp.

TA was clearly a bit OP and it has been addressed, I don't think trickster is OP in ball with the warp damage in place, it dies a lot easier now because you can only finish off almost entirely dead planes and not half-health planes like before.

[A Nipple]

NO U but its true =] few more days would give a clearer picture!

[Slender]

So I just took my time to try out the patch and here are my 2 cents.

I think that the laser and EMP nerf were very accurately addressed. The fact that Loopies could spawn and spam D all over the place was ridiculous. Now I feel like it has gotten a more valuable spot when it comes to its use and makes the player think more skillfully of when to use it.

Laser still does the damage but the removal of the energy regen while shooting, changed how it plays significantly. One can now be out of position, face a randa and know that it won't die by the shot+warp combo but rather have a chance of getting some damage and actually backfire.

Bomber is just lovely now; nothing to add here.

I haven't tried Remote yet but I feel it's not much of a big difference that it won't have that much CC when clearing out a push from the other team (in ball) which makes me think gives out some more chances of the enemy team to push through and score with a remote camping the goal. I'm not a remote player so these were just my thoughts.

Overall, I think the patch has come to balance the game a lot. Although we don't know how the competitive scene will be affected and how will (mostly) loopy and the randas will play, I'm a bit concerned about TBD to be honest.

Well done Lam!

[Tekn0]

Remote was nerfed because of leggo. duh.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by Tekn0

Remote was nerfed because of leggo. duh.

At least part of the reason for a remote nerf was the laser nerf, which was one of the main counter planes.

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by soccernamlak

• Biplane became too OP overnight. Increased speed, decrease impact from ball carrying, and faster shots throw any sort of balance from the other planes out of whack again.

Biplane didn't get increased speed. They got increased acceleration. I agree that they are powerful.

Originally Posted by blln4lyf

• [Randa] I'll also suggest a constant 30% nerf to Ta, not a 7 second timer as it is very easy to reset in ball and limit its effect. I would personally make the lazer length decrease more than 5%.

A counting down timer instead of a reset timer could be an option. If the Randa was at 6 seconds, self passed and got it back after a second, it's new timer with the ball is at 5 seconds. While it didn't have the ball, it was not affected by the timer (even though it wasn't zero).

Originally Posted by soccernamlak

ALSO, I'm not a particular fan of doing this in the middle of SL. Yes I understand this needed to be fixed. Yes it's been 10 months since the last update and another month before SL ends. Yes I understand developer's schedules and league schedules don't always align. It's just a bit unfortunate.

^

Originally Posted by listie

If you can explain WHY you made each change, I'd be much more inclined to accept these changes.

When you just blindly change things and don't explain why you are doing this, it's really quite aggravating.

So next update perhaps include some Revision notes/etc.. explaining why each "balance" change was made.

If you wish to gain insight into why these changes were made, you are welcome to read what we have been talking about for a long time. Not to mention the interesting information to improve the discussions.
Also, who are you?

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

dont really play acid but acid burning faster than hp pickups regend was pretty crucial i thought.. is that still a thing with the new timer?

Acid burns slower now. It has the same damage over a longer duration. Before, if your starting health was low enough, that health pack was just buying time tell death (more than now anyway).

Originally Posted by lamster

Follow-up patch now live:
Miranda - Time Anchor length now slowly increases rather than resetting instantly when the objective is dropped

I'm too slow.

What are the base travel speeds of the planes? I'm curious what the new and old bomb/ball carry speeds were after the percent takes hold. The larger hit on Loopy may make more sense when seen like that (are they still one of the top to planes in speed at that point?).

NOTE: I'm making the assumption that engine speed is a plane's speed. I'm not sure if weight is used in that as well, or if I'm just completely wrong.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...PSG8xYmc#gid=0
Bomb (Old %) {Patch 1} Patch 2
>>(Old Speed) {P1 Speed} P2 Speed
Whale (0.870) {0.990} N/C
>>(7.757) {8.827}
Bomber (0.870) {0.990} N/C
>>(7.757) {8.827}
Biplane (0.850) {0.950} 0.880
>>(7.579) {8.470} 7.846
Loopy (0.820) {0.910} 0.860
>>(7.311) {8.114} 7.668
Randa (0.860) {0.860} N/C
>>(7.668) {7.668}

Ball Carry (Old %) {Patch 1} Patch 2
>>(Old SpeedP1 Speed} P2 Speed
Whale (0.940) {0.990} N/C
>>(8.381) {8.827}
Bomber (0.940) {0.990} 0.980
>>(8.381) {8.827} 8.738
Biplane (0.860) {0.950} 0.880
>>(7.668) {8.470} 7.846
Loopy (0.780) {0.760} 0.780
>>(6.954) {6.776} 6.954
Randa (0.880) {0.800} 0.830
>>(7.846) {7.133} 7.400

[LewisH]

The engine speed is equal to the speed of the plane when it's traveling directly forward (completely horizontal) on full throttle without the afterburner, so yes, your calculations are correct

edit: also I don't like the emp nerf. It's completely fair, i won't argue with that, but i can't play with it. I guess I'll just have to wait until people don't care about me playing rev in ladder, rev acid seems to be my best setup now

edit2: see my next post(link)

[don quijote]

WHAT THE **** HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE EMP?

emp loopy is useless now, totally useless. Congratulations

[blln4lyf]

Second wave thoughts:

Much better!

• Emp is fine, it should not get a decreased cool down as skilled players are just as strong in it and it finally punishes mistakes. It is still a very good plane choice and will still be needed in all league play.
  
  
• Biplane doesn't need any resistance against emp anymore and the 3% acceleration seems too much. 1.5% or 2% maybe? The reason biplane wasn't played is because emp was able to be spammed and randa had superior movement with the ball but both emp/randa were nerfed.
  
  
• TA can still be played and isn't "dead". Still think constant length at all times is best but the 2nd change helps the balance a lot for ball so thanks for that. To expand on why, TA is too good in 1dm etc and just making TA like 30% shorter at all times would help fix all of its issues as I don't think it should be vastly superior to all other planes in 1v1 situations without a ball/bomb.
  
  
• Trick may be better now but it's close and trick does not need a movement nerf by any means. 83% ball speed is fine but I would personally still suggest 86% along with a decrease to max energy to eliminate double warp as it is still too powerful as a self pass in ball and to explode to the base with the bomb in tbd and it really waters down the skill needed to maneuver imo. Leaving how it is would be fine though.
  
  
• I would suggest increasing bombers turning rate to 7.0 as it is the worst plane as it stands IMO.
  
  
• Whale is fine as well, like emp/loopy is.
  
  
• Overall, bravo, its already much improved. Now my not so subtle hint at balanced user controls! :P

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by Ribilla

At least part of the reason for a remote nerf was the laser nerf, which was one of the main counter planes.

lies noone counters leggo's remote!

ALSO, I'm not a particular fan of doing this in the middle of SL. Yes I understand this needed to be fixed. Yes it's been 10 months since the last update and another month before SL ends. Yes I understand developer's schedules and league schedules don't always align. It's just a bit unfortunate.

A typical case of I FREAKING TOLD YOU SO.

Yeah When i mentioned this the other thread everybody blew me up (mainly shrode). I specifically asked if the patch was going to be in the middle of SL. Now everyone suffer. I'm glad. The changes seem fine to me, other than biplane being a bit too buffed.

[Slender]

Originally Posted by don quijote

WHAT THE **** HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE EMP?

emp loopy is useless now, totally useless. Congratulations

Originally Posted by Hollywood

qq more loopies. You are finally punished for spamming just like every other plane, and you hate it.

Feels good. Oh yeah.

[don quijote]

"Emp is fine, it should not get a decreased cool down as skilled players are just as strong in it and it finally punishes mistakes. It is still a very good plane choice and will still be needed in all league play."

Emp spaw is a legend. Normally teams play with 2 or more emps, so it is normal emp spaw, because there are a lot of planes using emp. if the other team play with 3 HC you will say, oh ****ing cannon spaw!

Now emp is just useless, now a loopy emp is a plane which has a little ball push, and it is a weak plane, with a very limited emp and you will see when in ladder and scrims, teams will play with 1 or even 0 emp using a second HC or bomber instead.

sorry bad english but i am furious

[shrode]

I'd say just revert the biplane ball carry speed so people don't complain and im happy! Good patch, and I really feel like you hit miranda in the right place (warp damage decrease was what i have been saying forever)

[Slender]

Emp is not useless, it just became more strategical since you know have a longer time to put out the EMP. Fact that makes Loopy a more valuable plane.

[Zero]

epic update, HC ace FTWWWW

[LewisH]

I've finally figured it out, and I like it.

Basically, i was so used to the old cool-down time that when I tried to fire emp and it didn't fire, i would sub-consciously think i was out of energy, so I'd make sure not to fire my primary for a second so I'd get more energy, this was cycling so to me it felt like I always had half the energy i would usually have.

This might help some of the other people having problems adjusting to it too, hopefully.

I'm starting to get used to it now, and i think it's working well, granted I can't have half the enemy team emp'd constantly anymore, but i can live with that

ps: my point about coop still stands, fix it please?

Everything else seems near perfect (I've already given my opinion on control balance,) and now I'm just waiting for the day when i am free to use rev in ladder without complaint
again, thanks lam

[zz-]

First - lam, nice job fixing the fix so fast. Didn't expect to wake up to patch #2 already today.

[EMP] - Don, you're right that people will play EMP less now -- however, isn't the point of a patch to shake up (balance) the plane choices? 3 EMP had become normal and 2 EMP had become nearly a necessity. The fact that you can see that teams won't be using 2 or 3 emps in every game is a good thing and indicates that the patch is a good one. However... I kind of agree that the EMP cooldown is just a touch too long. As has been mentioned previously, 1.25 to 1.75 is a real long wait, and when you think you've waited long enough, you haven't. Maybe 1.65 or 1.70 would be better? I feel like the highest level of playing EMP was affected just a little too much (legitimately aiming and landing all EMPs quickly) and all the speed increases are a bit of a natural nerf to EMP as well.

Bip speed / whale+bomber+bip throw speed - seems more balanced now. Haven't played enough to give full comments but from watching, it's not just blazing around everywhere and the ladder games look closer to the pace of pre-patch.

All in all I think things are close to good for now, imo we'll actually need more than a day or two to identify any imbalances, which is exactly what happens when the balance patch is working. As it is right now I could possibly see loopy, miranda, whale, or biplane being the most effective plane (with bomber playing better as well), and only playtime will tell. I wish ppl would play TBD so we can see how it feels.

[zz-]

Edit: I have to mention also my disappointment about the lack of a fix for mouse vs. keyboard control. IMO this seems like a really really easy fix -- an optional aiming line for KB users seems like it would put to rest most of the talk about the differences in the controlling methods, as there are a few minor differences here and there, but Mouse's advantage in aiming having by far the most magnitude.

The line wouldnt need to be as long as Mouse's throttle line, the main problem is that kb users often just can't distinguish where even the tip of their plane is (if there's an acid cloud, or multiple planes on top of each other, etc.) and a line about 1/2 or 1/3 as long as the mouse line would make things a lot more fair without removing the skill of aiming, as some are worried about.

[Psyko Soldier]

rip laser

chars

[don quijote]

one image says more than 1000 words

And the other guy who says that a useless plane is a "more valuable plane" reminds me our politicians when they say we will have better education and healthcare with less resources for them. What a joke.

[Fartface]

So I don't suppose there's any possibility of postponing this till after SL? I've heard many people ask for this. These updates are great, it just seems that SL will be all but ruined as emps get accustomed to the new playstyle...

[Slender]

4 almost 5 years of easy game play and overpowered loopies have come to one patch that has them all whining because of a short-delayed EMP. I don't support this cause.

[don quijote]

Originally Posted by SlenderMan

4 almost 5 years of easy game play and overpowered loopies have come to one patch that has them all whining because of a short-delayed EMP. I don't support this cause.

"overpowered loopies" have not been best players in ladder according with soccer stats.

[Duck Duck Pwn]

Bomber seems a bit strong at first glance, but don't want to judge too soon.

But thanks for the changes; I like how things have played thus far

[zackzingki]

I never thought this game was broken except for a few bugs and that blasted miranda laser. When I first read what was on the update I was pretty happy when I saw the miranda nerf. It's well deserved. But when I saw what you did to the loopy I'm started to feel a bit mad. The explodet was fine, and the update you made to it isn't that drastic so that's fine too. But the loopy. Why even touch it? What have they done to you? People complain about spam from loopies but it's not the emp, it's the missle itselfs. "Noobs" that use loopy rarely use the emp, they just hold F. I've been playing this game since 2009 and I didn't complain about anything because everything was fine. Now, I'm not going to pretend and say that this is ok, because it's not. The people that say that the 40% cooldown is justified are just happy that emp isn't really a problem to them. They don't have to consider loopies as a threat. When I get behind a biplane, and their emped, they shouldn't be able to get away or kill me, because that's whats happening now. If you want to nerf the emp a little bit that's fine because your goal is to make the majority of the people happy. But when you go to extreme and increase the emp cooldown by 40%, that's amazingly ridiculous. It feels like I can only fire 2 emp rounds in 10 seconds. Just go back to the way it was for loopies or decrease the cooldown. I hope I worded this properly, it's a bit hard to explain.

[Aki1024]

Originally Posted by zackzingki

[WallOfText]
When I get behind a biplane, and their emped, they shouldn't be able to get away or kill me, because that's whats happening now.
[WallOfText]

So, you are missing your emp on a biplane, and you are complaining that they aren't emp'ed? Or are you getting killed by a emp'ed biplane because they have more skilled then you even with a handicap?

[blln4lyf]

One thing I would like to bring up is laser. I believe its still too strong and laser essentially breaks TBD by itself by preventing heavies from being good options. If Laser was nerfed then bomber and whales would be good options again, and trick would be weakened due to having to face more heavies. This essentially makes all 5 planes viable in TBD and brings the mode back to severely better balance than the 3-4 randa games that it has become since laser. Point is, nerfing laser too much is can still be very good for the development of TBD while not nerfing it enough won't do much to change TBD's struggling landscape.

[classicallad]

Originally Posted by SlenderMan

4 almost 5 years of easy game play and overpowered loopies have come to one patch that has them all whining because of a short-delayed EMP. I don't support this cause.

This. ^

Loops won't stack 3-4 per team anymore which frankly was getting boring. EMP is still the strongest secondary in the game imo, but now it needs to be used TACTICALLY.

[classicallad]

Originally Posted by blln4lyf

One thing I would like to bring up is laser. I believe its still too strong and laser essentially breaks TBD by itself by preventing heavies from being good options. If Laser was nerfed then bomber and whales would be good options again, and trick would be weakened due to having to face more heavies. This essentially makes all 5 planes viable in TBD and brings the mode back to severely better balance than the 3-4 randa games that it has become since laser. Point is, nerfing laser too much is can still be very good for the development of TBD while not nerfing it enough won't do much to change TBD's struggling landscape.

As far as TBD is concerned, and 'quelle surprise' NO TBD ladder is being played and theres no APL currently so how can we judge that yet?

From just pubs testing out new randa it felt good. I could no longer hold my laser for eons and mash d at the same time, cant comment on 1 shots yet as i haven't studied enough. Can anyone say weather trick/TA can 1 shot loops and other randas and scamper off to safety so easily still?

[blarg]

i really like this patch. loopy is my best plane in ball, and i actually think the new emp cooldown makes me a better player and a more effective loopy. when i think carefully about when to use emp, which this patch forces, i am very rarely affected by the longer cooldown and i have more energy for primary fire.

Originally Posted by classicallad

Can anyone say whether trick/TA can 1 shot loops and other randas and scamper off to safety so easily still?

ark made a helpful post about this towards the beginning of the thread. it can't except with bars. the warp nerf seems to make the plane a lot less effective at close range, and i think ultra is worse now since you can't actually use that extra energy for good burst damage. my current thinking is to switch my trick to flexi/turbo or maybe even ace (from ha/ultra) and play more of a sniping style. as you say though, there has been no tbd ladder so i haven't had a chance to experiment. i'm curious to see how dragon adjusts.

[Reeslo]

emp is no longer anything now

[CCN]

[ACID]

Feels like a huge throwaway change that doesn't address the main issue.

Further pigeon holing the play style.

To me, an acid player in TBD and ball, the upgrade I think helps the most was to just adjust how acid cloud works. Entering any acid cloud resets the debuff. So if you enter a cloud, get hit, you don't want to re-enter it instead of avoiding it. Also helps zone out miranda's.

Unless that is how it works now.

[blln4lyf]

Originally Posted by classicallad

As far as TBD is concerned, and 'quelle surprise' NO TBD ladder is being played and theres no APL currently so how can we judge that yet?

From just pubs testing out new randa it felt good. I could no longer hold my laser for eons and mash d at the same time, cant comment on 1 shots yet as i haven't studied enough. Can anyone say weather trick/TA can 1 shot loops and other randas and scamper off to safety so easily still?

Good point, and I'm just saying some analysis at this point. Based on pubs it is still OP but I can't be positive that will carry over. You can absolutely hold laser for a long time and hit d at same time though. Hopefully we get some TBD going soon.

[zackzingki]

Originally Posted by Aki1024

So, you are missing your emp on a biplane, and you are complaining that they aren't emp'ed? Or are you getting killed by a emp'ed biplane because they have more skilled then you even with a handicap?

I didn't word that right. When I'm behind a biplane, and I shoot my emp, I should be able to shoot another instead of them recovering, then turning back to shoot me. If that makes sense.

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by Fartface

So I don't suppose there's any possibility of postponing this till after SL? I've heard many people ask for this. These updates are great, it just seems that SL will be all but ruined as emps get accustomed to the new playstyle...

As usual Tek the oracle saw this happening, I thought the patch would only address lazer and TBD. I wrote back even when it was being discussed:

Originally Posted by Tekn0

KARLAM: Do you really want to make patches in the middle of SL ? I don't mind so long as it doesn't affect ball mode.

and a couple of {ball} players WANTED it before SL:

https://altitudegame.com/forums/show...9&postcount=99

Originally Posted by shrode

Screw that fix the game ASAP imo

https://altitudegame.com/forums/show...&postcount=100

Originally Posted by blln4lyf

I would love the balance ASAP, not waiting till after SL.

[Greekjr14]

To all the "OMG EMP IS USELESS NOW GG" people, get the **** over it. EMP was always being stacked on both ball and TBD teams because it was spammed too much and was easy enough to get off with the radius of it.

Originally Posted by zackzingki

I didn't word that right. When I'm behind a biplane, and I shoot my emp, I should be able to shoot another instead of them recovering, then turning back to shoot me. If that makes sense.

So you're trying to say that just because you hit one EMP you should get a guaranteed kill for it? You do know loopy already has autotracking primary fire, which pretty much can guarantee a close range kill after hitting EMP. The fact that you want even more killing potential is ****ing hilarious to me. All in all, these changes seem perfectly fine to me. I could say that EMP should get a little bit of reduction time on its duration, but after playing i realized that it's perfectly fine.