Balance Changes in recent patches

[listie]

I have some issues I need to express regarding the recent balance changes (and pretty much every patch this game has ever had).

For one, if you can make mode-specific balance adjustments then why can't you simply do this TBD only? You are breaking every other mode of the game just because "miranda is dominating TBD in ladder".

An experienced developer does not make a blind stab in the dark balance adjustment in the "hopes" that it will some how magically fix the fact that "miranda is dominating TBD in ladder".

The correct approach is to make a real BALANCE adjustment based on STATISTICAL data or some sort of actual DATA (not hearsay and conjecture)

What actual data are you basing these balance adjustments on? These aren't balance changes to me, its more like the developer getting a lot of flak from loud mouths or whatever and just stabbing at his keyboard until the problem goes away. The mere fact that there has been so many changes to miranda balance over the patch history proves that they're not actually taking any time to see WHY these changes are necessary and if there isn't a better solution or root problem they are missing by simply listening to the forum people and not doing any real world game testing/data mining.

Since when is ladder so important anyway? Most people playing this game do not play ladder, I'm online all the time and I've never played a ladder game because I play this game for fun, not to compete with anyone. And I can tell you there are rarely as many people playing ladder games as there are in the rest of the non-ladder servers. The reason you don't see them is because none/most don't have a forum account and have never seen the forums.

[Slender]

First off, this is so 2010. Second, to call a theoretical physicist and a missile defense software developer inexperienced must mean you know a lot more about it. Third. How can you be so sure about our devs not balancing according to stats and actual game play by themselves? The people you see in normal servers are (in their majority) players who don't pay attention to the little details we (who do play ladder and constantly) notice and speak up about what is considered over powered or too weak, therefore they have nothing to discuss over here. Why is ladder (and its' players) so important? We try our best to match things up in overall game play, make devs notice what can change for good and what can be buffed or debuffed to keep things in order and make you guys who play in normals, have a nicer time when playing the game.

Being online all the time does not mean you know everything. But good try.

[mikesol]

While I'm not a developer for this game (sadly) - I do help with balancing changes. Balance changes are not something we take lightly and we've had numerous discussions about them over the years.

Let me address some of your points:

Originally Posted by listie

For one, if you can make mode-specific balance adjustments then why can't you simply do this TBD only? You are breaking every other mode of the game just because "miranda is dominating TBD in ladder".

Yes - we can make mode-specific changes. We have done that before with time anchor (see the anchor tail reduction with the bomb). However, we decided not to do that. Why? Two reasons: One - because it makes it harder to learn a plane when each game mode there is something different for it and two - because we feel it's broken in more than tbd. Randa is the only real viable option in 1dm. An all randa team is the optimal strategy and crushes all opponents with ease. In the various 1dm ladder servers (separate from the tbd and ball ladder servers) - randas are easily leagues beyond anyone else due to their mobility and killing abilities. The same goes with tbd (but it sounds like you are fine with the tbd changes).

Ball was a little bit trickier. Randas do indeed dominate ball as well. The highest skilled randas in ball carry much harder than any other plane in that mode. Even with the nerf - randas are *still* the best ball handler. Of course, you also stated that...

Originally Posted by listie

What actual data are you basing these balance adjustments on?

We have TONS of stats about planes. Feel free to check out soccer's posts in the ladder forum (http://altitudegame.com/forums/showt...?t=8610&page=1) or go to our ladder stat page here: http://www.altitudeladder.com/score.php?mode=ball_6v6 - you can find out all sorts of crazy things about stuff. For instance - the top 10 (and probably more) ball scorers are all randas. The top goal assisters are all randas. The top ranking players are randas.

In the official servers (where I spend most of my time) - the top players are always randa. In the 1dm server - the best players are always randa. In ball dojo - the best players are randas. Etc etc.

I'm not saying this out of spite (hey I play randa as my main with like 3,500 hours in this game) for the plane - I'm saying it because we've looked into this and talked about this a *ton*.

Saying something like:

Originally Posted by listie

The mere fact that there has been so many changes to miranda balance over the patch history proves that they're not actually taking any time to see WHY these changes are necessary and if there isn't a better solution or root problem they are missing by simply listening to the forum people and not doing any real world game testing/data mining.

is a pretty big logical fallacy. Just because there are numerous changes to a plane does not mean that people are not taking any time to see why these changes are necessary. We gradually change it to see how it goes and roll back changes we deem were a poor decision (we've rolled back some randa nerfs over the years!) It seems super lame to me to be like "well because these people disagree with me - that MUST mean they aren't thinking and doing any real world game testing / data mining."

There is a reason randa has been nerfed so hard over the years. 3 years ago, when I started playing time anchor as a relative noob to the game, I was able to bomb run 1v5 against opposing teams. Yes - the highest skill players would be able to stop that (barely) - but the player base for this game is relatively small and there are simply not that many players who can. In an attempt to make this game more fun for all - we decided to bring randa down in level so it's not quite so "overpowered."

Perhaps it will help more if I highlight why each change was made:
Miranda (All Forms) - teleport damage reduced by 25% (88 -> 66)
* This was done because of randas exceedingly ridiculous killing abilities. This is much more pronounced in tbd and 1dm where randas are, frankly, ridiculous - capable of having > 3.0 ratios even against other pro players. We do not want randa to be the best at both killing and bomb running / ball carrying. In ball, this is a slight nerf as well - because we wanted to slightly hurt the fact that randas can still kill well just by warping around and going after the ball.

Miranda (Laser) - decreased beam length by 5% (276 -> 262)
Miranda (Laser) - ammo no longer regenerates while beam is active (previously regenerated at 50% normal rate)
These changes are due to the fact that laser had been dominating in tbd (and mildly in 1dm - although trickster was much better). Unfortunately, these changes were also due to how good laser is with lag. Someone with 125ms ping can kill warp onto your screen and kill you without you even being able to move even if you were positioned in a good manner. Laser was not very good in ball and perhaps these changes further cemented the fact laser is largely useless in ball. However, as I mentioned earlier, having laser be better in one mode than another would make it harder to switch between the modes and make it challenging for laser players.

Aside from both of those things - the general consensus of the players we spoke to (which consists of a large percentage of the tbd player base) - agreed that laser was destroying the game mode and making it not fun for them to play.

Miranda (Time Anchor) - (all modes) - when carrying the bomb or ball the time anchor's maximum length decreases by 35% over 7 seconds (previously 42% in TBD, 0% in BALL)
This is a buff in tbd and a nerf in ball. As mentioned previously in this post, randa was VERY powerful in ball - and time anchor was the lead on that. A good time anchor could (And still can) destroy teams in ball. Keep in mind that this change will hardly affect players as most people pass within a few seconds once they have the ball. It was designed to make it so time anchors can't just sit and wait at a choke for their team.

It's not as if we are just listening to all of the qq and randomly patching things to get people to stop talking. The fact remains that the top players in the game are randas - in tbd, ball, and 1dm - and that's not necessarily because the randa players are more "skilled" than everyone else.

Hope that helps!

[listie]

The statistics you provided were player-centric. There was very little per-plane or plane related statistics more just what players won and the planes they used etc..

Are there any statistics about what plane is played the most?
How many players play each plane?
Kill ratios based on global player averages per plane?

Perhaps they are buried in the stats you provided but I didn't see anything like this.

Also, again, everything you stated was in response to Ladder and Ladder players and statistical data of players from the various Ladders. This doesn't address my point regarding the fact that more people play non-ladder then ladder.

It feels like no one cares about players that aren't part of the ladder, even though I'm quite certain the player base of non-ladder players is quite larger.

[Kafka]

Originally Posted by listie

It feels like no one cares about players that aren't part of the ladder, even though I'm quite certain the player base of non-ladder players is quite larger.

Originally Posted by SlenderMan

Why is ladder (and its' players) so important? We try our best to match things up in overall game play, make devs notice what can change for good and what can be buffed or debuffed to keep things in order and make you guys who play in normals, have a nicer time when playing the game.

He's right you know

[JWhatever]

There have been multiple threads regarding the balance issues where everyone have had the chance to state their opinions. A lot of players have been heard who all just happen to be ladder players. Those are the people who tend to be active with this game who know what they are talking about. They represent the highest to medium level players as well as all of the planes. There have been valid arguments for and against every plane and potential changes.

Most importantly, the changes were made because the players asked for them. Certain planes and perks dominated league games so hard that they made any tactical lineups obsolete. TBD league and ladder games are played with a team of 5. If 4 of those planes are Miranda then there must be something wrong with the plane balance.

Also, can you point out a game that isn't balanced around the highest level of play? (that is properly balanced)

-J

[listie]

But in this case the "highest level of play" as you claim, is actually NOT the most active, or largest player base.

There are far more players NOT playing ladder, as I've said repeatedly. Simply login every day and see for yourself.

I also forgot to ask this in my previous posts, but did the changes actually change what planes are dominating the ladders? I still see the same pro players playing their same plane, mostly randa.

[Slender]

I don't get what's your point from your statement of "ladder not being the largest player base". It doesn't really matter because even so, the smallest group here is the one that makes the biggest difference all around the community.

And there is no dominating plane in ladder, except for in tbd where laser is still pretty dominant but now has more chance of counter such as HC and EMP. Acid is far more viable than it used to be and is being picked more often compared to previous seasons and I'm not wasting 5 more minutes into this.

Can someone close this?

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by listie

But in this case the "highest level of play" as you claim, is actually NOT the most active, or largest player base.

There are far more players NOT playing ladder, as I've said repeatedly. Simply login every day and see for yourself.

Yes all fine and dandy, but nobody balances the game based on mediocre pub players where the team is full of scrub randas or rev biplanes.

Pub is just so full of crap that once the ladder servers became unstable most of the ladder players don't even go back to it. This isn't to say that all ladder players are uber pro, but it -is- a more competitive and semi-serious environment to the indescribably dumb pub servers.

I also forgot to ask this in my previous posts, but did the changes actually change what planes are dominating the ladders? I still see the same pro players playing their same plane, mostly randa.

In higher level play (tourneys) randa is not the most dominant plane at all. It has been years since teams play 2 randas and even longer since teams with 2 randas wins. I'm talking about ball, I don't care about TBD and I won't be surprised if lazer was still OP as hell in TBD.

I do not think all of the changes are perfect, but like i said before, we cannot balance the game based on disgustingly horrible pub play where people never pass the ball, rev bombers wasting bomb after bomb and other stupid things.

[classicallad]

Tricksters still one shot loopies with heavy armour, WITHOUT a green or blue perk.

STILL

Its been broken since the dawn of time and continues to do so.

[malakas]

Originally Posted by listie

But in this case the "highest level of play" as you claim, is actually NOT the most active, or largest player base.

There are far more players NOT playing ladder, as I've said repeatedly. Simply login every day and see for yourself.

I also forgot to ask this in my previous posts, but did the changes actually change what planes are dominating the ladders? I still see the same pro players playing their same plane, mostly randa.

Listie you should play ladder bro. We'd like to have you.

[malakas]

Originally Posted by SlenderMan

First off, this is so 2010. Second, to call a theoretical physicist and a missile defense software developer inexperienced must mean you know a lot more about it. Third. How can you be so sure about our devs not balancing according to stats and actual game play by themselves? The people you see in normal servers are (in their majority) players who don't pay attention to the little details we (who do play ladder and constantly) notice and speak up about what is considered over powered or too weak, therefore they have nothing to discuss over here. Why is ladder (and its' players) so important? We try our best to match things up in overall game play, make devs notice what can change for good and what can be buffed or debuffed to keep things in order and make you guys who play in normals, have a nicer time when playing the game.

Being online all the time does not mean you know everything. But good try.

Shack.

All your pwn are belong to slender.