Map pool discussion

[elxir]

Comments on current maps?

Comments on maps you wish to see in ladder?

Please add them to this thread in an articulate manner.

Note: for this of you in doubt as to what "articulate" means, I might direct you to the ball_planepark discussion and the Maimer's Maps discussion.

There are a lot of new maps being made in recent weeks, and it would behoove the community to find any that may help improve the ladder map pool.

Note: feel free to provide support for current maps that you like if you find others advocating for their removal.

NON-LADDER MAPS I AM AWARE OF:

tbd_leaf (+0/-0)
tbd_middleground (+1/-0)
tbd_metropolis (+0/-0)
tbd_origamipark (+0/-0)

ball_bangbangpark (+0/-0)
ball_cliff (+0/-0)
ball_coal (+0/-0)
ball_cutesy (+1/-0)
ball_empire (+0/-0)
ball_desertnight (+0/-0)
ball_hardcourt (+1/-0)
ball_pegs (+0/-0)
ball_pipedream_lite (+0/-0)
ball_sideshow (+0/-0)
ball_swarm2 (+2/-0)
ball_warehouse (+2/-0)

CURRENT LADDER MAPS:

ball_funnelpark (+0/-1)
ball_ice (+0/-1)

FORMAT:

[MAP_NAME] (please make this a hyperlink to the thread of the map if you are the first person discussing the map. There is no need to do this for any official Altitude maps.)

(ADD) or (DO NOT ADD) or (REMOVE and REPLACE WITH) or (KEEP)

Note: if you wish to see a map removed, you must provide support for a replacement map.

REASONING

EXAMPLE:

Originally Posted by elixir

[ball_cutesy]

(ADD)

REASONING

This map is modeled after snow, one of the most popular Altitude maps of all time.

It has exceptional graphics.

Its layout follows, in part, the time-tested layout of snow and its progeny.

It is not, however, an exact duplicate of snow. It has a unique middle ball control mechanic, in the form of cat ears.

Additionally, it has a more developed tertiary area around the goal. This creates the opportunity for new strategy development.

Also, it's darn cute.

I will attempt to keep a running tally in the OP. If a map gains enough community support, we may give it a shot.

Maps that will absolutely not be removed, no matter how hard you try:

All neutral tbd maps

ball_darkwar

[Aki1024]

[ball_swarm2]

(ADD)

It has hexes, plays well, is fun, looks good, and has hexes.

Also, it has hexes.

[andy]

[tbd_middleground]

(ADD)

Bring it back!!

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by elxir

Maps that will absolutely not be removed, no matter how hard you try:

All neutral tbd maps

you monster

[VAN1SH1NG]

Still waiting on hardcourt's return to ball ladder. I know many others want it back.

(ADD) ball_hardcourt

[shmo55]

[ball_doodle]

(ADD)

I will make my comeback to ball ladder if doodle is put back into the rotation

[Fartface]

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showt...iddle%20ground
[TBD_Middleground]
(ADD)
If we're not removing neutral maps, we may as well include the best one

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2334
[TBD_Justice]
(ADD)
Not sure if this is possible as the thread said the background was a violation or something, but if it is possible, we need another short map besides cave

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6124
[BALL_Hardcourt]
(ADD)
It's good, I don't know what else to say

Lostcity (both game modes)
(REMOVE)
This map consists of a single rock, need I say more

[Nikon]

[ball_warehouse]

(ADD)

Reason: I like how the graphics turned out, they're easy on the eyes and look good imo. Almost everyone that I've had play it likes it, has fun trick shots and trick passes, plays smoothly, got on dojo's map rotation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ball_cliff]

(ADD)

Reason: I like the graphics on this also, plays well, has gotten good feedback, has had a decent amount of testing, has also gotten on dojo's map rotation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ball_ufo]

(REMOVE)

Reason: Too tall, Too big, too open, does not play very smoothly, too much dump the ball and chase, I just flat out dislike this map.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, there is a tbd_cliff, you didn't have that up on the OP, not saying it should be on ladder, don't know if it's good or not.

Lix this is a really good idea, and I hope you keep it up and it gets lots of comments.

[elxir]

None of the above posts really amount to a competent argument for or against a maps inclusion or exclusion.

Nikon's comes close.

FYI

[[Y]]

Originally Posted by elxir

None of the above posts really amount to a competent argument for or against a maps inclusion or exclusion.

Nikon's comes close.

FYI

missing an apostrophe

post invalid

[trendy11one]

Originally Posted by Fartface

http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2334
[TBD_Justice]
(ADD)
Not sure if this is possible as the thread said the background was a violation or something, but if it is possible, we need another short map besides cave

Justice was short and fun to play. And only problem was, that TA was dominating here. At least, both donk and ball'n could hit here ez. So now TA nerfed, we can give it another try.

[zz-]

How tough is it to add/remove/edit maps? If the answer iz "not very hard", then IMO adding maps shouldn't require much justification - variety and new maps is a terrific thing, and obviously anything completely hopeless can be removed, and anything that needs improvement could be edited. In my opinion most maps only receive the highest "scrutiny" in ladder or league, so putting them into ladder will only expedite the process of adding maps to the pool.

I guess what i mean is, I hope the result of this thread is at least 4-5 new maps being tried soon, not just 1 or 2 old crappy ones being brought back. I wouldn't mind the old crappy ones coming back (hardcourt/doodle) IF some edits were seriously considered - these maps were taken down for a reason and when such a simple change can maintain the uniqueness of the map while offsetting the most unpopular qualities, it would make no sense to re-add them in their old form (which has proven to be only somewhat popular) in place of new maps that could be the best maps ever.

To add zome actual zuggeztions:

-ADD ball_swarm2. Played this map a couple times, it's fun, challenging, has sexy wall shapes for playing ball - (useful/reliable wall contours are a giant plus for game quality in ball mode), has a nice theme, and is popular among everyone i've seen play it.

-ADD ball_hardcourt - ONLY if the spawns are moved closer to mid. This is one of those simple fixes that could really save a unique map. Obviously on this map the spawns point defenders right in frotn of their goal; this, in ++ to the map being a mile long, creates an effective 15v6 in favor of defense for the entire game. Moving the spawn up a little helps spawners of the offensive team come back to the play, and does more to punizh players for dying with poor timing, thus rewarding good midfield play a little bit more. I don't need to remind you of the 20-30+ min games that were so standard here because it was so ez to play like **** and just respawn for D over and over. Hell that's how i ended up playing a lot of the time. Also every pixel that the spawn is moved forward matters twofold (offense closer to O, defense further from D), so not such a drastic movement is necessary


-ADD ball_warehouse . I played on this some recently. The game was high quality, had a nice pace, and again with this map, the walls have knowable bounces which really contributes to a high quality game. The style is nice and this seems to be a balanced map which any plane could control.


-ADD ball_cutesy. The influence of snow is apparent on this map. While I haven't actually played this one yet, looking at it for a couple minutes is encouraging enough. The only issue i can quickly spot is that the spawns are very close to middle and have a wall underneath which would make it pretty slow to get back to your own side, possibly a very offensive map. The style is cash as **** bro, and i can't wait until my friends walk in while im flying my little loopy around in a game against apparently lots of junior high girls. Rezpect for straight ripping off what is a proven great map - i'm all for having maps that borrow heavily from previously successful structures as well as completely new ideas.

That is all for now gg

edit: i cant write a post this long without lots of errors

[rojo]

ball_ice
(REMOVE and REPLACE WITH)
ball_warehouse
While I actually like ball_ice as a map, successful goals appear to be entirely dictated by who is able to grab the wall powerup. I do think proper usage of power-ups is important, but due to the incredibly narrow paths of the map it makes avoiding wall power ups in any plane but a randa entirely impossible. The 5+ or so times I've played ball_warehouse in pub, it does play very similar to ball_ice, so it may be a good swap for ball_ice if there's enough support around it.

ball_cross
(REMOVE)
My issue with this map is much more subjective. I just don't have an enjoyable time playing this map. It just feels like a loopy and bomber spamstorm until someone is able to eek a shot off. For all the criticism we give new maps, if we were to apply it to this mainstay would we all really consider it "ladder ready?" I'm not calling for an immediate replace of this map, but out of the current pool this is one that might be good to drop for something slightly more scrutinized.

A side question: lix, how many maps are you looking for in each pool? Is there infinite amounts of room for maps, or if you add, say, 5 maps are you looking to cut 2?

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by rojo

ball_ice
(REMOVE and REPLACE WITH)
ball_warehouse
While I actually like ball_ice as a map, successful goals appear to be entirely dictated by who is able to grab the wall powerup. I do think proper usage of power-ups is important, but due to the incredibly narrow paths of the map it makes avoiding wall power ups in any plane but a randa entirely impossible. The 5+ or so times I've played ball_warehouse in pub, it does play very similar to ball_ice, so it may be a good swap for ball_ice if there's enough support around it.

ball_cross
(REMOVE)
My issue with this map is much more subjective. I just don't have an enjoyable time playing this map. It just feels like a loopy and bomber spamstorm until someone is able to eek a shot off. For all the criticism we give new maps, if we were to apply it to this mainstay would we all really consider it "ladder ready?" I'm not calling for an immediate replace of this map, but out of the current pool this is one that might be good to drop for something slightly more scrutinized.

A side question: lix, how many maps are you looking for in each pool? Is there infinite amounts of room for maps, or if you add, say, 5 maps are you looking to cut 2?

ball_cross -is- an incredibly loopy spam friendly map, whether this is good or bad it's upto the community I guess.

[Ribilla]

Originally Posted by Tekn0

ball_cross -is- an incredibly loopy spam friendly map, whether this is good or bad it's upto the community I guess.

I don't have a problem with it. We have many maps which are beneficial for whales and randas, why shouldn't we have ones that are good for both loopies and bombers?

If you're going to remove maps for benefiting certain planes, then things like Cave and Snow need to go too.

[sunshineduck]

cross is a pretty good randa map too

[Solqom]

ball_funnelpark
(Remove and Replace with)
ball_hardcourt

Ball_Funnel Park is horrid for a few reasons: mostly its lanes are REALLY narrow making it ridiculously easy for whales to thermo/mine at the ends. Despite this fact everyone always goes down the tiny little pathways and are normally greeted with a butt load of mines/a friendly thermo to the face. Also because the pathways are so narrow it's virtually impossible for any plane other than a trickster to turn around easily, which just takes away too much from competitive play- where plane park got it spot on (the height of the bottom paths) funnel failed miserably. It's a shame because the graphics are damn sexy and done to a really high standard but the layout just doesn't do it, for me at least.

Ball_Hardcourt was great, it had that x factor that made it feel different and set it apart from other maps. While I used to agree with the general consensus, that the spawns needed to moved closer to the middle, I now feel that having the spawns close to the goals just increases the urgency forcing teams to push and counter quickly, which adds excitement to games. It was easy on the eyes and had predictable bounces (unlike the new maps skylands and reef, which imo would benefit from being more polygonal like all the other maps have been).


On a side note, I really think new maps that have a bit of public support should be put into the rotations of public servers, not just for vote. Playing a map in ladder for the first time is not a great feeling especially if it still needs a lot of work.

Sol

[Radium]

{keep}
ball_ice because it is a good map !

[rojo]

Originally Posted by Tekn0

ball_cross -is- an incredibly loopy spam friendly map, whether this is good or bad it's upto the community I guess.

Originally Posted by Ribilla

I don't have a problem with it. We have many maps which are beneficial for whales and randas, why shouldn't we have ones that are good for both loopies and bombers?

If you're going to remove maps for benefiting certain planes, then things like Cave and Snow need to go too.

Originally Posted by sunshineduck

cross is a pretty good randa map too

I agree, hence why I said its more subjective than objective. Hell, I have a winning record on that map, but eh its only one map so doesn't really matter if it stays or goes tbh.

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by Solqom

ball_funnelpark
(Remove and Replace with)
ball_hardcourt

Ball_Funnel Park is horrid for a few reasons: mostly its lanes are REALLY narrow making it ridiculously easy for whales to thermo/mine at the ends. Despite this fact everyone always goes down the tiny little pathways and are normally greeted with a butt load of mines/a friendly thermo to the face. Also because the pathways are so narrow it's virtually impossible for any plane other than a trickster to turn around easily, which just takes away too much from competitive play- where plane park got it spot on (the height of the bottom paths) funnel failed miserably. It's a shame because the graphics are damn sexy and done to a really high standard but the layout just doesn't do it, for me at least.

Disagree. ball_funnelpark is a Randa friendly map, my win % rate on it with randa speaks for itself. It is nowhere by any means a ridiculously easy map for whales. I don't see anything wrong with funnel park, making every map like cave/grotto is the sure fire way to ruin ladder. First you said it's increedibly whale friendly, then you say only trickster is viable in the lanes... that's contradictory.

The key is to have variety of maps, just because certain playstyles of Randa is not rewarded in funnelpark doesn't make it a whale friendly map.

agree on re-adding ball_hardcourt. But I'm sure we will have loads of people just hating on it if it gets readded because they fail to adapt to the map.

[elxir]

Originally Posted by rojo

A side question: lix, how many maps are you looking for in each pool? Is there infinite amounts of room for maps, or if you add, say, 5 maps are you looking to cut 2?

I don't think anyone has ever really attempted to place a limit or give a reason for why there should be a limit.

Of course, the more proven maps available to us, the easier it will be to justify removing older, less popular maps.

[elxir]

OP updated to this point.

ball_cutesy: At this limited point in its existence, I too agree that it has a lot of potential for a ladder map.

ball_hardcourt: I agree that Hardcourt should find its way back into ladder at some point. I also agree that a complete overhaul of the spawn locations is necessary beforehand.

ball_swarm2: Every time I play this map, I wobble between hating it and loving it.

ball_warehouse: I've only played Warehouse once so far. While the graphics are undoubtedly clean, the problem I have with Nikon's recent maps (no offense) is that they seem to lack spirit. The graphics really don't attempt to tell any kind of story. I'm not suggesting that Nikon needs to hire an art director, but like, if I have to stare at this map every time I get spectated then I want it to be fun to stare at.

That said, Warehouse and its ilk do follow a fairly assembly-line formula, which all but guarantees good game play - but also guarantees repetition, and a lot of it.

---

ball_cross: The first time many of us played Cross was on ladder. It came out of nowhere. However, at this point (two years later), I think it's safe to say that Cross falls into the Labyrinth style of maps, and they have a home in ladder.

ball_funnelpark: I hate it, but at this point I can't really disagree with its inclusion. It has incredible graphics and has a high degree of team-play - even if that same play is only loosely related to the general schema of normal ball strategy.

ball_ice: I agree that walls are exceptionally powerful on this map. However, Ice (bless its heart) produces some of the fastest games in ladder. Which is...awesome.

[VAN1SH1NG]

ball_ufo: I don't think I would vote to remove it, but I would not miss it at all if it was gone. Easily the worst of the maps currently in rotation.

(KEEP) All other maps currently in rotation. I like variety and would rather keep all maps we have other than maybe ball_ufo. I really enjoy playing ball_cross, one of my favorites.

I would be happy enough if we could vote ball_hardcourt. Games can take a long time on this map, so it might be a compromise to let us vote to play it.

[Nikon]

Originally Posted by elxir

ball_warehouse: I've only played Warehouse once so far. While the graphics are undoubtedly clean, the problem I have with Nikon's recent maps (no offense) is that they seem to lack spirit. The graphics really don't attempt to tell any kind of story. I'm not suggesting that Nikon needs to hire an art director, but like, if I have to stare at this map every time I get spectated then I want it to be fun to stare at.

That said, Warehouse and its ilk do follow a fairly assembly-line formula, which all but guarantees good game play - but also guarantees repetition, and a lot of it.

Okay, regarding your comments on the graphics. I do not know what has gotten into people lately, no offense. But when you think these graphics are boring, look at maze, or cross for example, super boring and dull. I don't know what kind of story you're talking about, but I find warehouse to be interesting to look at, and tell an interesting story.

I agree, a lot of my recent maps have been a miss (coal, desertnight, desolate) But Cliff, Warehouse, Reef, and Skylands all are very interesting to look at, and I'm very proud of them. I don't think my maps lack any kind of spirit tbh ...

[Tekn0]

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

ball_ufo: I don't think I would vote to remove it, but I would not miss it at all if it was gone. Easily the worst of the maps currently in rotation.

ball_ufo worst in what way?

[sunshineduck]

Originally Posted by elxir

I don't think anyone has ever really attempted to place a limit or give a reason for why there should be a limit.

Of course, the more proven maps available to us, the easier it will be to justify removing older, less popular maps.

nobo and i capped it at 16. iirc he created the number and said that it kept maps fresh

[General Gee]

Originally Posted by VAN1SH1NG

(KEEP) All other maps currently in rotation. I like variety and would rather keep all maps

^this. There will always be someone who doesn't like a map for some reason, but then there will be others who like them for exactly the same reason. I love all the maps that people have already mentioned - lostcity, funnel, ice, cross - so plz consider this a vote to keep them. I personally don't want to see all the maps have the same play style

I would like to see the following added to rotation on AIR and Dojo so we can play them properly for a week or so and then add them to rotation on ladder
cutesy
desertnight
desolate
hardcourt (spawn mod)
warehouse

[Flexio]

[tbd_leaf]

(ADD)

Reasoning: This map has a well-balanced and fun layout. Everyone I have played this map with likes it, and the graphics are a big hit.

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

Graphics look sexy as a mofo.

This map has been through over a year's worth of updates and testing, allowing me to fine-tune the map and get it ready for competitive play. Adding this map to ladder for players to enjoy would the next step toward making it an official TBD map.

[TheLastPhonePhreak]

I can't agree more that the ladder map pool should be diversified more and more often, especially if it's as easy as just changing around a few settings. I have to humbly disagree with limiting either ladder's map pool at 16, it seems a bit arbitrary. I don't see any downside with having more maps in the pool if the community likes said maps. Dunno if there's even enough maps in contention for being switched in/out of the pool for this to be relevant, but just sayin'.

I really only play TBD so I'll limit my votes to those. TBD maps are, let's face it, SO STALE, imho tbd ladder could greatly benefit from all the diversity it can get.

(ADD) tbd justice - great, short map, love how it's one of the few maps with a gigantic obstacle in the center. fun routes, why not?

(ADD) tbd origamipark - I get the feeling that people are pretty iffy about this map but my god does tbd ladder need more maps. With anchor nerfed, the many avenues to the base are much less inhibiting to competitive play.

(ADD) tbd hills - I love how small it is and how tight it forces you to play, running and escorting have a completely different feel because of it.

(ADD) tbd Cliff - Once again, thanks nikon for all these new maps, I've been loving them. Cliff has some fun routes, good spacing, and seems to lean towards fairly standard play. +1'd.

As for marioworld, I love the map's graphics and the uniqueness of its center (unusually horizontal obstacles make for some really interesting spamming and back and forth), I'd love to see it in the pool but I'm cautious about it's lower route and the effectiveness of under hits. What do you guys think?

I'm hesitant about middleground. Talk about turtleish maps. I can't stand sitting during a mayhem game, I'm sure middleground would be much worse.

[Ribilla]

Hills has invalidated your post. It's so bad I don't even play it in pubs.

[Radium]

[tbd_leaf]

(ADD)

Reasoning: This map has a well-balanced and fun layout. Everyone I have played this map with likes it, and the graphics are a big hit.

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

Graphics look sexy as a mofo.

This map has been through over a year's worth of updates and testing, allowing me to fine-tune the map and get it ready for competitive play. Adding this map to ladder for players to enjoy would the next step toward making it an official TBD map.

[leggomyeggo]

[tbd_leaf]

(ADD)

Reasoning: This map has a well-balanced and fun layout. Everyone I have played this map with likes it, and the graphics are a big hit.

Originally Posted by leggomyeggo

Graphics look sexy as a mofo.

This map has been through over a year's worth of updates and testing, allowing me to fine-tune the map and get it ready for competitive play. Adding this map to ladder for players to enjoy would the next step toward making it an official TBD map.

[Flexio]

[leggomyeggo]

Originally Posted by Flexio

[Radium]

Originally Posted by Flexio

picture

who was this directed to

[Mist]

ADD ball_warehouse

Angles are unconventional but predictable. Plays very similar to ice except that powerups are more balanced. Played 15+ games on it and all have been fast-paced and enjoyable with a lot of scoring chances (this from a player who doesn't really like ice). Has received very good feedback from almost all players who played on it.

[elxir]

There is a new season approaching, which is an ideal time to change the map pool (significantly).

Is there any interest in a major overhaul of the pool, perhaps for a season or a part of the new season?

This applies mainly to ball since tbd only has a handful of new maps to consider.

For example, we could remove (for the beginning of the season, or longer) Asteroids, Cave, Core, Funnelpark, Grotto, Lost City, and UFO, and replace them with:

Cliff
Cutesy
Pegs
Sideshow
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc

[Radium]

Originally Posted by elxir

There is a new season approaching, which is an ideal time to change the map pool (significantly).

Is there any interest in a major overhaul of the pool, perhaps for a season or a part of the new season?

This applies mainly to ball since tbd only has a handful of new maps to consider.

For example, we could remove (for the beginning of the season, or longer) Asteroids, Cave, Core, Funnelpark, Grotto, Lost City, and UFO, and replace them with:

Cliff
Cutesy
Pegs
Sideshow
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc

remove funnelpark and ufo?
real
no way!

[Nikon]

I think that would be a really interesting idea lix, altho I'm not so sure on pegs being one of them. but I would def be down for this.

[Solqom]

No offense nikon, but you are biased. This disqualifies your opinion ;p

imo a major overhaul would really suck, the quality of ladder would deteriorate massively. I'm all up for adding new maps that have support and switching out ones that generally aren't liked. However removing the classics and favourites like cave, grotto and roids would be a real shame.

-----------------------------

Also just noticed a -1 on Ice! So...

Ball_ICE (KEEP)

Ball_Ice offers something that a lot of other ladder maps don't. Fast paced, quick, and high quality games. The graphics are great and not distracting. While walls maybe be a powerful tool on this map I would argue that walls are probably the most powerful powerup anyway. They are equally, or even more, powerful on maps like funnel park and plane park. The walls are smooth and offer reliable and predictable bounces while still having slightly rounded corners and interesting shapes to add variety. It offers a lot of "passing room" for lights, and reasonable easy choke points for whales to defend. All-in-all its a well balanced, well designed map that has earned it's place in ladder.